# "There is a mean streak in anyone who will destroy another's faith." **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104 "2010-11-18T16:04:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/141 "2010-11-20T01:26:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No; that just means that God is evil too. So? Nothing in that premise requires us to believe God is good. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/142 "2010-11-20T02:27:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Shouldn’t that be “Weak noGodwin’s Law?” You… there are no words defined on wikipedia that are bad enough to fit you! ---
**Author:** ![Apollo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@Apollo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/143 "2010-11-20T02:59:02Z")
The experience of deities is a psychosocial artifact of the human mind and conciseness, as such a very real phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/144 "2010-11-20T03:03:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So? Nothing in that premise requires us to believe God is good. Yes it does. If God is evil then doing what he wants is not “good work”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/145 "2010-11-20T03:07:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pray tell us which Doper you might find that is _anything_ like your cartoonish version of Ms. O’Hair. > You are the one with the loaded deck-_you_ deal. Outside the Pit? No. I think that is part of the problem, though. Theism ought to be discussed rationally. The unfortunate fact that some atheists can’t react to mention of the name of God without thinking in Pit terms shows that for the kind of aggressive atheist asshole I have mentioned, a mean streak is exactly why they attack theism with such fury. All of them? Of course not, any more than Phelps is representative of theists. Some of them? Well, we have seen examples. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/146 "2010-11-20T03:15:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Outside the Pit? No. > > I think that is part of the problem, though. _Theism ought to be discussed rationally._ The unfortunate fact that some atheists can’t react to mention of the name of God without thinking in Pit terms shows that for the kind of aggressive atheist asshole I have mentioned, a mean streak is exactly why they attack theism with such fury. > > All of them? Of course not, any more than Phelps is representative of theists. Some of them? Well, we have seen examples. Can anyone spot the sentence that seems out of place?(Italicized clues mine) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/147 "2010-11-20T03:20:48Z")
No, this is GD. It is not out of place, at least here. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/148 "2010-11-20T03:28:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, this is GD. It is not out of place, at least here. > > Regards, > Shodan So you are all for discussing theism rationally? Using logic and evidence to test religious claims? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/149 "2010-11-20T03:40:22Z")
Sure. This thread is about the truth or otherwise of the proposition “There is a mean streak in anyone who will destroy another’s faith”. I have already mentioned that I don’t think the “anyone” part is necessarily accurate. You chose to ignore that part, which does not bode well for the chances of debating that rationally. I can’t pretend to be surprised by this - I have seen how theism threads run on the Dope. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/150 "2010-11-20T03:49:29Z")
I like this thread a lot. I read the whole thing and I feel much more confident in my atheism now. I feel like I have good ammunition to fight back if my atheism is challenged by some proselytic jerk. Part of the reason I was more agnostic about the whole thing was because I didn’t really have a good argument for what I believed. I thought that to be an atheist and say “there is no god” meant that I would have to prove the null hypothesis that gods don’t exist. And of course, using principles of logic and the powerful Smurf Argument, this is not the case. So thanks for that. =) On the whole I would say I came into this thread as an agnostic/[apatheist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism) and am leaving a self-confident atheist. But still, not a proselytic one. I reserve the right to argue my atheism for people who wish to push their religion onto me (and reserve the right to abstain when it comes to family). ## Which brings me to a point that is relevant to you, OP: if/when you see this relationship going places (meaning marriage and kids), then it behooves you to discuss your belief conflict as soon as possible. Do not try to convert her, and do not allow yourself to be converted by her. But you need to find out asap whether she intends to baptize kids/raise them as religious. And if you find out that you’re unable to come to a compromise, you need to end it. That compromise could be anything from deciding not to have kids, to baptizing them and that’s the end of it, to actively raising them as atheists, to never mentioning religion under your roof, or to allowing your SO to raise them with her religious belief. But you guys have to agree on one of those things or it’s just not going to happen. I personally believe that the sooner everyone (on both sides of the argument) agrees that religious belief is completely outside the realm of logic, the better. Religious people should stop trying to argue that faith can be logically supported, and atheists should stop trying to convince religious people that because faith cannot be logically supported, it’s worthless. Faith is completely outside logic. And I think that’s ok. I (illogically perhaps) believe that humans are wired to have religious belief. While logically speaking the null hypothesis is a lack of god-belief, humans have believed in gods since humans were humans–which makes god-belief the default from an anthropoligical standpoint, at least. I don’t think this is an accident, and I \*\*know \*\*it’s not something that will change overnight. Most importantly, I don’t think it’s something worth alienating the people you love over. As stated by someone else in the thread, the tenor of religious belief is changing (thank you, science!). In less than a thousand years, we’ve gone from torturing and killing nonbelievers to having substantial percentages of atheists in the first world. That is a fucking lot of progress fucking fast, considering how long our species has been around. Atheists, do not lose your faith (heheh) that humans are fundamentally logical. Reason will prevail in this case, too. Just not yet. Stop agitating for something monumental to happen in your lifetime; humanity does not work that way and you are wasting a lot of valuable energy that would be better spent masturbating. Hold your beliefs, share them at appropriate times, but do not push them onto anybody. Strive to be as an earthworm through dirt rather than a fist against steel. (Sorry for the cheesy Confucius-esque metaphor, but I’m feeling happy and enlightened. Kind of a big deal for me.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/151 "2010-11-20T04:45:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes it does. If God is evil then doing what he wants is not “good work”. So if God told you put a “Palin 2012” sign in your front lawn, you wouldn’t do it. Okay, suppose God then told you that he was going to kill a million people in an earthquake if you didn’t put up the sign, would you do it then? Or do you feel that keeping your integrity is more important than a million lives? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/152 "2010-11-20T05:04:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if God told you put a “Palin 2012” sign in your front lawn, you wouldn’t do it. Okay, suppose God then told you that he was going to kill a million people in an earthquake if you didn’t put up the sign, would you do it then? Or do you feel that keeping your integrity is more important than a million lives? If God told you that every night you didn’t molest a child, he’d kill a million people, would you? And even if you did, would you call it “good work”? Caving into blackmail, doing evil deeds for an evil being is never “good work.” At the _very best_, it would be a necessary evil. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/153 "2010-11-20T05:34:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if God told you put a “Palin 2012” sign in your front lawn, you wouldn’t do it. Okay, suppose God then told you that he was going to kill a million people in an earthquake if you didn’t put up the sign, would you do it then? Or do you feel that keeping your integrity is more important than a million lives? What is he, the Jigsaw killer? God would still be responsible for his own actions. The proper ethical thing to do is tell him to go fuck himself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/154 "2010-11-20T11:37:26Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Is there some SDMB rule that every discussion related somehow to religion must inevitably degenrate into an argument over the definition of atheism? The only defense theists have is that atheists are just as wishful-thinking as themselves. If they could _prove_ the existence of their god(s) or whatever… that would be quite different. I always figured it was like alcoholics who, when told they have a problem, lash out at the person telling them so. It’s understandable, if nonproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/155 "2010-11-20T11:44:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So if God told you put a “Palin 2012” sign in your front lawn, you wouldn’t do it. Okay, suppose God then told you that he was going to kill a million people in an earthquake if you didn’t put up the sign, would you do it then? Or do you feel that keeping your integrity is more important than a million lives? Heck, God’s gonna do what God wants regardless. If he wants me to post a sign so bad, let him magically alter my brainwaves to that end. Until such time, let him post the damn sign himself. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/156 "2010-11-20T13:01:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If there is no evidence in favor of a proposition, the default is to assume that the proposition is unproven - not true, not false, unproven. > > Think of it like this - is there proof that other intelligent civilizations exist in other galaxies? There is speculation, but no definitive proof either way. Would you agree that the default position is **not** to assert “there are no other civilizations”? > > As far as the question of the OP’s title, I don’t know about the “anyone”. Certainly, many of the more aggressively dogmatic atheists are motivated by a desire to build up their own (often damaged) egos at the expense of others. And sometimes it is a matter of trolling - people trying to stir up trouble as a method of attracting attention to oneself. > > Madlyn Murray O’Hair is the quintessential example of this - a person who seemed to base most of her life on an unfortunately successful campaign to be the biggest pain in the ass that she could manage. It rather backfired on her in the end, according to a biography of her that I read. Apparently she hired ex-convicts to work on her farm, since only people desperate for work would put up with her abuse. Unfortunately a couple of the ex-cons got the idea that she was hiding gold coins in a stash somewhere (apparently the way she handled donations to her atheist organization was a bit on the dodgy side) and the ex-cons killed her in an attempt to rob her. > > _Sic transit gloria mundi._ > > Regards, > Shodan I think it is the fact that there ‘May Be’ life on an other planet of galaxy. It would be quite a thing if the other planets had Dinosaurs etc. that were hit by a comet,died out, and then man evolved. I don’t think one will find a humanoid like our planet has, or some of the same species, unless the other intelligent life somehow came to this world and inhabited it first. There are a lot of things that happen, Just be-cause they do ,or did. The fact that the people alive today had anscestors that had sex at a certain time brought forth the one’s now living. Humans want things layed out in such an order, but a lot could just be by chance! There was a time in human recorded History that some religious people could also be called a pain in the ass to non believers! Like the wars over religions in the past. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/157 "2010-11-20T13:15:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure. This thread is about the truth or otherwise of the proposition “There is a mean streak in anyone who will destroy another’s faith”. I have already mentioned that I don’t think the “anyone” part is necessarily accurate. You chose to ignore that part, which does not bode well for the chances of debating that rationally. > > I can’t pretend to be surprised by this - I have seen how theism threads run on the Dope. > > Regards, > Shodan If a person can destroy another’s faith then, he /she really had no faith to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/158 "2010-11-20T18:03:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If a person can destroy another’s faith then, he /she really had no faith to begin with. So a person who thinks he has faith might be wrong because he’s going to lose that faith twenty years from now? Suppose he gets hit by a truck tomorrow and dies before he loses his faith. Does that make his faith real? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/159 "2010-11-20T20:53:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So a person who thinks he has faith might be wrong because he’s going to lose that faith twenty years from now? > > Suppose he gets hit by a truck tomorrow and dies before he loses his faith. Does that make his faith real? Nope. Getting hit by a truck pretty much kills your faith. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104/160 "2010-11-20T21:12:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Nope. Getting hit by a truck pretty much kills your faith. The rest of you, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-a-mean-streak-in-anyone-who-will-destroy-anothers-faith/561104.md?page=9)