# "There is no God" is an opinion, not a fact. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925 "2005-01-09T20:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/301 "2005-01-10T19:14:09Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > And, for example, **gobear** has now lumped me in with a group I’d never belonged to, because he took into consideration something I’d posted, but hasn’t bothered to comment on any of them directly to me. When I refuted his claim, he hasn’t acknowledged me or apologize. OK, you say that you don’t mind having glurge debunked by Snopes. I see that and apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/302 "2005-01-10T19:21:51Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m not preaching to anyone, and I’m also not going to shut up and conform as the theists here expect nonbelievers to do. Please show me a post on this board where a theist told you they expected you to “shut up and conform” to their way of thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/303 "2005-01-10T19:26:52Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > without flaking out, then there would be no reason not to deal with them or to trust them. > > Moreover, it would seem foolish and a waste of time to take the opportunity to avoid them or treat them like deluded fools. A simple encounter with a believer in the IPU does not oblige a person to tell them how deluded they are. If they are treating you like a deluded fool, then they ask for the same treatment back. If they are _not_ preaching or treating you with a lack of respect, to take the opportunity to tell them how deluded they are, or to make snide remarks about their sanity or stability, well, that makes you an asshole. (And this works both ways, of course. Plenty of assholes on both sides.) If they were minding their own business. But if Congress were preparing to pass a law requiring pineapple on all pizzas, if 400 years ago Europe was torn for ten decades in a pineapple - no pineapple war, and if some country today was riven by sectarian strife between the believers in an Invisible Pink Unicorn and Invisible Purple Camel, then it might behoove the more rational among us to say stop the madness. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/304 "2005-01-10T19:31:53Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Please show me a post on this board where a theist told you they expected you to “shut up and conform” to their way of thinking. > [@](#): > > There is a God" is as supportable as “There is no God” by observation and deduction. Anyone who thinks differently shouldn’t be discussing this, because they’re not keeping an open mind. Plus the charges of intolerance thrown by **Tris** , **Faithfool** , **and Polycarp** are meant to tell me to not speak up. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/305 "2005-01-10T19:41:55Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > doesn’t God tricking you make him seem a bit…dishonest? > > on the subthread of evidence, I beleive it can be said that there is an equal amount evidence for a God and a lack of God **IF NO CLAIMS ARE MADE ABOUT GOD** Welcome to the SDMB, Taber! Your post is very reasonable (translation: I agree with it) but don’t expect much response. Most theist s of all sttripes just don’t seem to understand the inherent contradiction in saying God cannot be expected to provide evidence of his existence on one hand, and a moral code supposedly given by God on the other. The other thing I don’t get is why they say God won’t show himself to allow for faith, while God shows himself all the time in the Bible, and even punishes Moses for doing something that reduces the direct evidence of his existence. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/306 "2005-01-10T19:42:24Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Plus the charges of intolerance thrown by **Tris** , **Faithfool** , **and Polycarp** are meant to tell me to not speak up. No, they’re telling you to quit being intolerant. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/307 "2005-01-10T19:43:02Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > OK, you say that you don’t mind having glurge debunked by Snopes. I see that and apologize. Um, thank you. But what about the “angry” part? I’m trying to see both sides and help to broker some sort of tacit agreement. Why is that bad for the folks who aren’t trying to hurt you, but to assist as well? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/308 "2005-01-10T19:47:57Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > No, they’re telling you to quit being intolerant. When they redefine intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism,” they are effectively telling me and other atheists that our view may not be spoken in polite society. We are to shut up and be quiet. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/309 "2005-01-10T19:50:13Z")
Ok, I really, really do give up because this is verging on ridiculous. That’s twice now that you’ve insulted me, **gobear** , and your apology was half-hearted and forced, at best. Regardless, I am sorry for any offense I have caused you or for being intolerant. That is the _last_ thing I’d ever want attached to my character, so I’m more than willing to cast it out in myself before I attempt to help anyone with it. However, I can’t speak for **Tris** since I don’t know him that well, but I had believed, or hoped rather, that **Poly** and I and **Seige** , among others, were doing our very best to consider other viewpoints and ideas as respectfully as possible. I see that I, at least, have fallen woefully short. I will back out of this thread now, re-read what I’ve written and try to correct my lack of sensitivity and poor attitude. I appreciate you pointing it out to me, from a different point of view. Again, I’m very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/310 "2005-01-10T19:51:55Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > When they redefine intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism,” they are effectively telling me and other atheists that our view may not be spoken in polite society. We are to shut up and be quiet. I don’t see anyone in this thread defining intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism.” “Insulting people you disagree with” seems to be a more prevailing definition, and one that you meet in spades. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/311 "2005-01-10T19:54:13Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > When they redefine intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism,” they are effectively telling me and other atheists that our view may not be spoken in polite society. We are to shut up and be quiet. :eek: Wait! Stop the presses!! I do get it now. I believe there is a misunderstanding. I am not a theist. I’m more of an agnostic deist. And I have no desire whatsoever, to make any “shut up and be quiet” nor that your “view may not be spoken in polite society” ever. For from it. I was lobbying for respect on both sides, is all. That’s it and nothing more. I hope that at least clarifies one position. Well, mine. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/312 "2005-01-10T19:54:26Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > IANA Theist but I recognise the usefulness of belief. Society would either fall apart or be communist without belief. I wonder what percentage of aid-workers are Atheists? I wonder what percentage of Tsunami donators are Atheists? Are you saying that without belief in a god, human beings would completely lack the concept of compassion? That all that ever motivates giving and helping is an external source of guilt or fear, not an innate generosity or empathy? You’re not painting us Godless Heathens in a very fine light, here. I’d think it might be the opposite. With no God, there’s no illusion that The Big Guy Upstairs will sort it all out in heaven, nor the suspicions that “gee, maybe God is punishing them all for being heathens” or “it didn’t happen _here_ 'cause _we’re_ nice, God-fearing people.” If nobody else is going to help us, and this particular world is all we have, maybe we depend on _ourselves_ to make things better, instead of sitting back and waiting for justice in an afterlife that may or may not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/313 "2005-01-10T19:54:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > When they redefine intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism,” they are effectively telling me and other atheists that our view may not be spoken in polite society. We are to shut up and be quiet. Given your very first post in this thread, you have an interesting view of “polite society”. Stop moving the goal-posts. **Lord Ashtar** did not tell you to “shut up and be quiet”. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/314 "2005-01-10T19:57:19Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I don’t see anyone in this thread defining intolerance as “any POV contradicting theism.” “Insulting people you disagree with” seems to be a more prevailing definition, and one that you meet in spades. And you seem bound and determined to ignore that I’m criticizing ideas, not people (except for Bible literalists–they’re drooling morons.) Religion makes no sense at all in a rational worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/315 "2005-01-10T20:02:24Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Please show me a post on this board where a theist told you they expected you to “shut up and conform” to their way of thinking. Well, the Supreme Court did it when it ruled that I have to accept “Ceremonial Deism” when it’s practiced in public instutions that I pay for. Any theist who says I have to accept “in God we trust” on the money or “under God” in public schools is telling me to shut up and conform. Ditto to if they tell me to accept Franklin fucking Graham performing a benediction at the presidential inauguration (and thus turning it into a religious ceremony) or any clergy offering prayers to Congress on the public tit and in a public building taking away time when those public officials are supposed to be attending to public business. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/316 "2005-01-10T20:25:35Z")
Yeah, and some of us have our tax money paying for abortions that we do not endorse either… But **Lord Ashtar** specifically asked who **on this board** told other posters **on this board** to “shut up and conform”? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/317 "2005-01-10T20:35:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If they were minding their own business. Fight those who are _not_ minding their own business. Don’t assume to include those of us (like **Polycarp, Siege, faithfool,** etc.) who, as far as you know, _are_ minding our own business. Do you _know_ that we want to impose our beliefs on you? Have we claimed that we do? If so, fight us. If not, do us the courtesy of assuming that we just want to live our lives, believe what we believe, and not be insulted for it. **Faithfool** brings up some excellent points about being less insulting and more tolerant. You (the collective “you”—not singling anyone out specifically) don’t have to shut up and be quiet. It’s possible to tell those of us with faith that you don’t share our faith (and think we are “mistaken” in our faith) without going so far as to tell us that we’re deluded fools. I think that some of the outfits people wear are abysmal, and while I may not tell them that they look _fabulous_, I somehow refrain from telling them they look like shit. See? There’s a middle ground there. To tell someone, with great relish and bluntness, that they look absolutely _terrible_ isn’t necessary. You can say, “I don’t think it works for you.” Or, “Maybe the green pantsuit is better.” It’s never going to ilicit a _positive_ response from someone to say to them, “Oh my _GOSH_. You look like such a fat hideous cow in that.” Yet some of you are doing something similar to that, and you wonder why it pisses the rest of us off. You say you are being “truthful.” Why, yes, you are. Just as much as the person who tells someone else that they look like a fat hideous cow is being “truthful.” They are _truthfully_ telling someone exactly how they feel, after all. You make a choice. If you choose your words more carefully, temper them a little, perhaps you’ll ruffle a few feathers now and then. But for the most part people will accept what you have to say, even if they don’t always agree with it. Or, you can say _exactly_ what’s on your mind, in a more blunt, insulting way, and be branded an asshole for it. Your choice. You can’t say _whatever_ you want, in any manner that you want, and not risk being called an asshole. This seems to not get through to some of you. You want it _all_ your way. You want to tell people how stupid and deluded they are, and you want them to _not_ think you are an asshole for doing so. Sorry, it simply does not work that way. And it never will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/318 "2005-01-10T20:47:51Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Yeah, and some of us have our tax money paying for abortions that we do not endorse either… An abortion is not religious statement. It’s not an establisment violation. The government is not restricted from using taxpayer money in ways which offend you, only from propagating a specific religious view. > [@](#): > > But **Lord Ashtar** specifically asked who **on this board** told other posters **on this board** to “shut up and conform”? Anyone who has argued in support of “Ceremonial Deism” has done that figuratively if not literally. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/319 "2005-01-10T20:52:19Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > You make a choice. If you choose your words more carefully, temper them a little, perhaps you’ll ruffle a few feathers now and then. But for the most part people will accept what you have to say, even if they don’t always agree with it. Or, you can say _exactly_ what’s on your mind, in a more blunt, insulting way, and be branded an asshole for it. Your choice. You can’t say _whatever_ you want, in any manner that you want, and not risk being called an asshole. This seems to not get through to some of you. You want it _all_ your way. You want to tell people how stupid and deluded they are, and you want them to _not_ think you are an asshole for doing so. Sorry, it simply does not work that way. And it never will. But you miss a crucial bit–one can omit the “deluded” comments and limit oneself solely to doubting the existence of any gods, and one will _still_ be called an intolerant asshole. It’s impossible to be an atheist publically and not get called names or draw the hate of the righteous, which explains why some of us are getting a mite tetchy. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/320 "2005-01-10T20:57:06Z")
Blasphemy is an epithet bestowed by superstition upon common sense. Whoever investigates a religion as he would any department of science is called a blasphemer. Whoever contradicts a priest; whoever has the impudence to use his own reason; whoever is brave enough to express his honest thought, is a blasphemer. When the missionary speaks slightingly of the wooden god of a savage, the savage regards him as a blasphemer. To laugh at the pretensions of Mohammed in Constantinople is blasphemy. To say in St. Peter’s that Mohammed was a prophet of God is blasphemy. There was a time when to acknowledge the divinity of Christ in Jerusalem was blasphemy. To deny his divinity is now blasphemy in New York. – Robert Green Ingersoll, “Interviews,” Works, v. 5, p. 50, quoted from Joseph Lewis, The Ten Commandment, “Third Commandment,” pp. 212-3 in light of the cultural changes since 1877, for “New York,” read, “The USA.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925.md?page=17)