# "There is no God" is an opinion, not a fact. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925 "2005-01-09T20:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/621 "2005-01-15T20:48:50Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Also, Atheists don’t have a powerful being watching their every move. Therefore possibly have less reason to feel guilt at not being charitable. It’s a weak argument I know, but as I said it was a while ago. You must not have much faith in humanity at all, if you really think someone needs a powerful supernatural being motivating them to guilt at not being charitable. Or in fact that people are charitable at all because of guilt. I can see how you might’ve arrived at that conclusion, but I don’t think it has any basis in reality. I could argue that since most atheists or agnostics I’ve met in general seem to tend towards more left-wing politics, and since the left-wing traditionally supports more social welfare and social services, that in fact, atheists feel more a responsibility towards their fellow humans since they believe this is the only life we have and every person deserves to have at least some level of minimum needs and quality of life met. I don’t think either your theory or my hypothetical one is true to reality. There are a lot of religious who seem all to ready to dismiss things as “God’s will” and plenty of atheists/humanists who feel a deep-seated responsibility to take care of the earth and improve society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/622 "2005-01-15T20:50:58Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Well, You’re totally wrong. > > Most of the money donated by private citizens came from atheïsts, around here. How do I know? Because most of the people in the Netherlands don’t believe. > > Personally, I find this a pretty insulting thought of you. But then again: Freedom of speech before anything, right? Well I didn’t mean to insult. I am an atheist myself and I don’t find the possibility that atheists are less charitable (because they have at least one less reason to be charitable) insulting. But if most people in the Netherlands don’t believe then surely it is no surprise that most of the donations from the Netherlands came from non-believers. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same is true of Britain. I’m not saying atheists are heartless bastards. I am saying they might (MIGHT) be statistically less charitable as a group. And If that turns out to be untrue then that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/623 "2005-01-15T20:52:04Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Also, Atheists don’t have a powerful being watching their every move. Therefore possibly have less reason to feel guilt at not being charitable. Well, I know some Christian people who don’t give anything to charity because they believe that God is trying to punish those people and they don’t want to interfer with His judgement, so there are arguments made either way. For the record, I give more now that I am atheist than I did when I was religious. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/624 "2005-01-15T20:58:03Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Because most of the people in the Netherlands don’t believe. One of the many things I love about the Netherlands. Maybe when American society has matured as far as the Dutch have we will reach that level of rationality. I sure hope so, but it’s at least 400 years away, I think. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/625 "2005-01-15T20:59:23Z")
> [@jinwicked](#): > > You must not have much faith in humanity at all, if you really think someone needs a powerful supernatural being motivating them to guilt at not being charitable. Or in fact that people are charitable at all because of guilt. I recognise human nature as a significant motivator to be charitable. My argument, which I admit is weak, is that belief in a supernatural being is just one _extra_ motivator. That in the average case the theist might be more charitable than the atheist because he has slightly more reason to be. An extra obligation. > [@](#): > > There are a lot of religious who seem all to ready to dismiss things as “God’s will” and plenty of atheists/humanists who feel a deep-seated responsibility to take care of the earth and improve society as a whole. I don’t deny that. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/626 "2005-01-15T21:03:15Z")
Look, I didn’t think what I said was so bad. It was in reply to someone who had some strong views about **wrongs** done in the name of religion and that existed because of religion. I was trying to say that plenty of **good** is done in the name of religion also. And that even though I don’t believe in god, I suspect that religion has had a positive effect on the world as well as a negative one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/627 "2005-01-15T21:04:26Z")
that doesn’t sound right. replace ‘think’ with ‘realize’. (it looked as though it was an opinion, which it wasn’t) ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/628 "2005-01-15T21:06:22Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > Look, I didn’t think what I said was so bad. It was in reply to someone who had some strong views about **wrongs** done in the name of religion and that existed because of religion. I was trying to say that plenty of **good** is done in the name of religion also. And that even though I don’t believe in god, I suspect that religion has had a positive effect on the world as well as a negative one. So, Could you give me an example of a positive effect religion has? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/629 "2005-01-15T21:13:56Z")
> [@gum](#): > > So, Could you give me an example of a positive effect religion has? An modern effect - The Red Cross and Red Crescent organisations. An overall effect - structure to human society, a reason to live, a goal to work towards, a purpose. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/630 "2005-01-15T21:46:41Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > An modern effect - The Red Cross and Red Crescent organisations. > > An overall effect - structure to human society, a reason to live, a goal to work towards, a purpose. How about non-religious charities and help organisations? They’re no good, huh. Structure to human society? Are you joking, or is that a typo? Did you mean ‘destruction’? A purpose, reason to live and a goal towards what? Heaven? Do you claim that atheïsts have no purpose in life? No goals? No reasons to live? Yes. I believe you’re very, very wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/631 "2005-01-15T21:49:41Z")
**gum** why are you being an asshole about this? Why have you got a chip on your shoulder? I am not saying there are no atheist charitable organisations. I am not saying atheists have nothing to work for. I am not even saying religion has had a positive effect. I am Hypothesising! ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/632 "2005-01-15T22:07:16Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > **gum** why are you being an asshole about this? Why have you got a chip on your shoulder? I am not saying there are no atheist charitable organisations. I am not saying atheists have nothing to work for. I am not even saying religion has had a positive effect. I am Hypothesising! Could you please warn a person he’s Hypothesising! Nothing in your posts suggested that. In fact, your posts smell of bigotry towards atheïsts. Even if you claim you’re one yourself. Are you sure about that? Don’t you feel today might be a good day to be a theïst? Maybe tomorrow, after some nice, complicated, filled with more-than-four-syllable-words post by a non-believer, you’ll be an atheïst again? Any donkey-behind-like behaviour is yours. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/633 "2005-01-15T22:19:15Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Could you please warn a person he’s Hypothesising! **Nothing** in your posts suggested that. In fact, your posts smell of bigotry towards atheïsts. Even if you claim you’re one yourself. Are you sure about that? (Bolding mine) Nothing?.. “I **suspect** that religion has had a positive effect on the world as well as a negative one.” “That in the average case the theist **might** be more charitable than the atheist because he has slightly more reason to be” “I’m not saying atheists are heartless bastards. I am saying they **might (MIGHT)** be statistically less charitable as a group.” “Also, Atheists don’t have a powerful being watching their every move. Therefore **possibly** have less reason to feel guilt at not being charitable. It’s a weak argument I know, but as I said it was a while ago.” (bolding added to emphasise hints at hypothesis) I am an atheist. Hypothesising that religion might have been a necesary part of the progression of human society to it’s current state is not biggotry towards atheists. And notice I said ‘might’ again. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/634 "2005-01-15T22:30:17Z")
I think it’s kind of silly to argue that nothing good has come out of faith-based society, because clearly a lot has. What’s perhaps silly is to argue nothing good can come from a secular society. Many do so, however by suggesting faith is absolutely essential for lawful and moral civilization. I do not think this is so, but I have no proof, because there are no functionally secular societies, either presently, or in their conception. What’s clear is that faith-based societies _do_ appear to inevitably give rise to all sorts of things that are _not_ good. Would secular societies be any worse? I rather doubt it. At best, I’d say faith is unessential for lawful and moral civilization. It would be nice to put that hypothesis to the test, but I doubt I’ll ever see it in my lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/635 "2005-01-15T22:33:11Z")
It’s like saying there might be more people driving over 70MPH on Germany’s autobahn than people driving over 70 on Britain’s motorways because the Germans have one less reason to stay under 70. (the lack of a speed limit) It’s only an hypothesis. And it could easily be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/636 "2005-01-15T22:45:32Z")
I never said any different. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/637 "2005-01-15T22:53:00Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > And by the way, while it may be anecdotal to you, to me it is first hand eyewitness account. I am sure that you are aware that first hand eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable, and that many have had what are surely contradictory accounts. More importantly, do you think others should believe because of your account? Is there anything independently checkable, such as a prophesy which you wrote down which came true? And do you think others should be forced to change their behavior based on your experience? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/638 "2005-01-15T22:53:09Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I never said any different. What’s your point? I didn’t see your reply when I posted mine. Mine was just meant as a p.s. to my previous one. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2005, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/639 "2005-01-15T23:02:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > More importantly, do you think others should believe because of your account? If the proper circumstances arise, I will witness. It is up to them to decide what to do with it. > [@Voyager](#): > > Is there anything independently checkable, such as a prophesy which you wrote down which came true? I have had moments where I could swear I was reliving a dream, but I think it’s more likely that it was just deja vu and that there’s no meaning attached to it. > [@Voyager](#): > > And do you think others should be forced to change their behavior based on your experience? Absolutely not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925.md?page=31)