# "There is no God" is an opinion, not a fact. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925 "2005-01-09T20:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/101 "2005-01-10T02:31:29Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > I know that’s a fallacy, but that doesn’t make them all wrong. That’s not the point; you cited the number of believers as evidence. It doesn’t make them wrong, but also doesn’t make them right. The number of people who believe in a proposition has no relevance to its validity. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/102 "2005-01-10T02:39:19Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m not insulting people, I’m insulting their silly beliefs. Sure, some folks have complex, nuanced ideas about God, but they are far, far outnumbered by the mouthbreathers who really do believe God lives in the clouds where the streets are paved with gold. No, you’re insulting people. You called people who hold certain religious beliefs “moutbreathers” in the sentence immediately after you said you’re not insulting people. Are we in a Monty Python sketch? 😕 Also, you acknowledge that people _do_ hold more nuanced beliefs of God then the one you just slammed, but you’re still not ackowledging that using that belief (the simplistic one) in your stereotype is insulting to those who hold the nuanced one. > [@gobear](#): > > And how is denying the existence of gods equivalent to being a racist or a sexist. Are you claiming to be the victim of discrimination? It’s not what you’re denying but how you’re denying it. > [@gobear](#): > > And I have to ask, what intolerance? You insult people who believe differently then you. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/103 "2005-01-10T02:40:22Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > That’s not the point; you cited the number of believers as evidence. It doesn’t make them wrong, but also doesn’t make them right. The number of people who believe in a proposition has no relevance to its validity. I did not cite them as evidence. I said that they would disagree with your assertion _that there is no evidence_. But yes, the number of people who believe something has no relevance on its validity. That we agree on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/104 "2005-01-10T02:53:58Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No, you’re insulting people. You called people who hold certain religious beliefs “moutbreathers” in the sentence immediately after you said you’re not insulting people. Are we in a Monty Python sketch? 😕 So you’re saying that there are no stupid people who hold simplistic beliefs? > [@](#): > > Also, you acknowledge that people _do_ hold more nuanced beliefs of God then the one you just slammed, but you’re still not ackowledging that using that belief (the simplistic one) in your stereotype is insulting to those who hold the nuanced one. I’m saying, A) that the mouthbreathers outnumber the nunaced believers and B) that nuance of belief has no relevance to its validity. C’mon, far more churchgoers have read Jenkins and LaHaye than Tillich or Niebuhr. > [@](#): > > It’s not what you’re denying but how you’re denying it. Bull. Theists just can’t handle having their beliefs challenged. > [@](#): > > You insult people who believe differently then you. I insult their beliefs. That you can’t tell the difference is your problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/105 "2005-01-10T03:19:29Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Well, my position on the matter is this: > 7. For anyone who does not so weigh the evidence and who has not had such an experience, it is **reasonable** to hold that there is no adequate evidence to prove the existence of God to him. To throw out an addendum, one can also have a spiritual experience, theophany perhaps, and still arrive at a conclusion by reason of being skeptical of the existence of a deity. (Not a diety, thanks.) Then again, having a spiritual experience somewhat out of the realm of the religion I had been raised with did add to my skepticism somewhat, although perhaps it should have had the opposite effect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/106 "2005-01-10T03:23:05Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > That’s not it at all. It’s not that I said I don’t understand it. It’s that I think it’s more likely that a creator, who knew what he was doing, did this, than that it happened by accident. That in itself means you don’t understand it. Your misperception there is any “design” in the universe is not supportable by empirical observation. > [@](#): > > Go back to the building analogy. Could this building have sprang up all of the sudden of it’s own accord? Possibly, but it seems more likely to me that it was built by someone who did it purposely. A “building” is not analogous to the universe. A building shows evidence of artifice and design. The universe does not. Not even a little bit. > [@](#): > > There is nothing you can try and “explain away”. You aren’t going to change my mind, and you aren’t going to “convert” me. I never said I wanted to. I couldn’t care less what you believe. I’m just pointing out the logical fallacies in your argument. > [@](#): > > I’m not convinced God exists, just as I’m not convinced God doesn’t exist. It just seems more likely to me that God does. Does that make sense? I have no opinion on what seems more likely to you, I’m just saying that if you base your conclusion solely on a perception of “design” in the universe then your conconclusion is flaws because your assumptions are flawed. There is nothing in the universe that show the slightest hint of being anything other the result of natural processes. If you want to argue otherwise, please specify a single thing that you think couldn’t have happened by chance. Name one thing that requires a designer. Oh…and the “most likely” thing is always that which conforms to physical laws. The impossible can never be “more likely” that the possible. Even a moment of thought should make that obvious to you. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/107 "2005-01-10T03:23:16Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > So you’re saying that there are no stupid people who hold simplistic beliefs? No, I’m saying there are people who aren’t stupid and who hold simplistic beliefs. It’s wrong to characterize a _person_ as stupid (or a “mouthbreather”) based on a single belief, especially when that belief can neither be proven or disproven, and double-plus especially when you don’t understand why they’ve arrived at that belief. > [@gobear](#): > > Bull. Theists just can’t handle having their beliefs challenged. This is another gross generalization that’s untrue. We have theists admitting that their beliefs may be wrong in this very thread–that isn’t something that people incapable of being challenged do. > [@gobear](#): > > I insult their beliefs. That you can’t tell the difference is your problem, not mine. When you use the word “mouthbreather,” which is a perjorative, you’re clearly describing people, not religious beliefs, because religious beliefs don’t have mouths. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/108 "2005-01-10T03:26:12Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > I did not cite them as evidence. I said that they would disagree with your assertion _that there is no evidence_. But yes, the number of people who believe something has no relevance on its validity. That we agree on. 🙂 Whether there is evidence of “gods” is not a matter of opinion but of fact, There is, _in fact_, no evidence of gods whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/109 "2005-01-10T03:29:21Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Whether there is evidence of “gods” is not a matter of opinion but of fact, There is, _in fact_, no evidence of gods whatsoever. That’s wrong. You seem to have your mind rather closed to this subject, so I don’t think I should bother trying to explain myself to you. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/110 "2005-01-10T03:31:06Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > That’s wrong. Isn’t it just _your opinion_ that that’s wrong? In fact, I don’t think it is. I don’t know what could be considered reasonable evidence of god’s existence by any standard. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/111 "2005-01-10T03:33:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Isn’t it just _your opinion_ that that’s wrong? In fact, I don’t think it is. I don’t know what could be considered reasonable evidence of god’s existence by any standard. Yes. I should have said “I think it’s wrong”, but I didn’t. I think there is lots of evidence for God’s existence, and there is also evidence that suggests God doesn’t exist. It’s all in how you interpret it. Now, as far as _proof_, that’s a different thing altogether. I can’t _prove_ God exists, nor can I prove He doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/112 "2005-01-10T03:35:04Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > I think there is lots of evidence for God’s existence, and there is also evidence that suggests God doesn’t exist. It’s all in how you interpret it. Yes, I said evidence that stands up to scrutiny. What is there? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/113 "2005-01-10T03:36:51Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > That’s wrong. > > You seem to have your mind rather closed to this subject, so I don’t think I should bother trying to explain myself to you. :rolleyes: On the contrary. My mind is wide open. You don’t have to explain _yourself_ to me, I don’t care. All I’m interested in is physical evidence. What have you got? What is the evidence that gods exist. Don’t just say I’m wrong, _prove_ me wrong. Show me something. [Hint] Opinions don’t count as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/114 "2005-01-10T03:39:36Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > Yes. I should have said “I think it’s wrong”, but I didn’t. I think there is lots of evidence for God’s existence, and there is also evidence that suggests God doesn’t exist. It’s all in how you interpret it. > > Now, as far as _proof_, that’s a different thing altogether. I can’t _prove_ God exists, nor can I prove He doesn’t. Evidence is nothing you can “think” exists. It either exists objectively or it doesn’t. There is zero evidence that gods exist. Your opinions don’t count as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/115 "2005-01-10T03:40:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Opinions don’t count as evidence. Oh, please. Most interpretations of situations involve a person’s opinion of something. How can you say that opinions don’t count as evidence? You seem to be suggesting that, only if no one disagrees with it, does it count as evidence. If that’s the case, I would like to hear your evidence against God’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/116 "2005-01-10T03:42:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Evidence is nothing you can “think” exists. It either exists objectively or it doesn’t…Your opinions don’t count as evidence. You seem to be confusing ‘evidence’ with ‘proof’. > **[Definition of evidence | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evidence)** > > Definition of evidence from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/117 "2005-01-10T03:43:08Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > You seem to be suggesting that, only if no one disagrees with it, does it count as evidence. No he’s not. He’s saying you to offer something concrete, that isn’t just evidence in your opinion. > [@](#): > > If that’s the case, I would like to hear your evidence against God’s existence. Burden of proof extraordinary claims blah blah blah. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/118 "2005-01-10T03:44:41Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > Oh, please. Most interpretations of situations involve a person’s opinion of something. How can you say that opinions don’t count as evidence? You seem to be suggesting that, only if no one disagrees with it, does it count as evidence. If that’s the case, I would like to hear your evidence against God’s existence. Opinions are not evidence by any definition. Sorry. Look up the fucking word. As for evidence that God does _not_ exist, you first have to construct an empirical definition of “God.” As far as I’m concerned it’s a nonsense word. Asking for evidence that God doesn’t exist is like asking for evidence that gleeks don’t exist. It’s a meaningless question. ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/119 "2005-01-10T03:45:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No he’s not. He’s saying you to offer something concrete, that isn’t just evidence in your opinion. ‘Evidence’ is open to interpretation. The police examine the evidence, and make conclusions based on it. When they believe the evidence points to something (with a reasonable degree of certainty), then they claim to have ‘proof’. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925/120 "2005-01-10T03:48:59Z")
> [@Othersider](#): > > ‘Evidence’ is open to interpretation. The police examine the evidence, and make conclusions based on it. When they believe the evidence points to something (with a reasonable degree of certainty), then they claim to have ‘proof’. So your claim to have evidence doesn’t mean anything. Have you got some proof or some evidence that would stand up to any kind of scrutiny, like I asked? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-god-is-an-opinion-not-a-fact/283925.md?page=7)