# There Is No Male-Female Wage Gap **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413 "2011-04-14T21:06:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/41 "2011-04-15T16:42:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The reality is that most women end up working, too. > > If you think that divorce benefits women, you are insane. Women experience an average 40% decline in standard of living after a divorce, where men experience a 10% _rise_. [This](http://www.menweb.org/divordad.htm) says otherwise. Certainly women are more likely to file for divorce, and it could be expected there would be a reasonable purpose to this. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/42 "2011-04-15T16:45:13Z")
Can you find a cite a bit less agenda-driven than “Menweb?” ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/43 "2011-04-15T16:45:32Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > And we can’t get win. If we devote ourselves to our kids and let our careers slide, if something goes wrong we get yelled at for “having kids we can’t afford.” If we choose not to get married and have kids, we are painted as bitter, broken things bound for a lifetime of regret. If we try to jam it all together in our early thirties, we are chided for being obsessed with our biological clock. I see the exact opposite–women win no matter which they choose. If they have kids and a career, then they are heroes for trying to have it all. If they leave work to raise kids, they are heroes for giving up their career (even if their “career” was a go-nowhere job they hated) to raise a family. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/44 "2011-04-15T16:54:51Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Well, okay, but why? I’m not trying to be difficult, but I don’t see it that way. It seems very unfair to me. So it’s a _good, fair idea_ to have a mother who has just given birth head back to work immediately if she does not have the cash saved up to take an unpaid leave? Seriously, take a look at the charts. As **CalMeacham** says, the US stands out. Do you think that every single other country on that chart is wrong/being unfair? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/45 "2011-04-15T17:03:45Z")
I would prefer some academic studies using hard statistical analaysis as opposed to an Op-Ed piece from the WSJ with some random data points in order to draw a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/46 "2011-04-15T17:34:27Z")
I don’t even think the disparity is kids - not in this case. And it isn’t at all surprising given the age of the population they are taking about. Girls tend to outperform boys academically. More young women go to college. They grow up faster. Whether they are college educated or high school graduates, a 22 year old woman is (statistically speaking) more employable (more accomplished, more responsible) than a 22 year old man. It takes them longer, but boys do (again, speaking in terms of populations) become men. Sometime in their mid-20s or so they catch up in terms of being responsible. But they bring along that assertive, risk taking, competitive behavior we reward in boys (the same behavior that delays their maturity) and tempered, that’s the sort of behavior that becomes admired. However, as many women have learned - that same behavior isn’t always admired in women - where it can be perceived as “bitchy” or “whiny” (assertive) or “flaky” (risk taking) or “not being a team player” (competitive). So men hit their 30s at a point where what are often traditionally male attributes in personality are rewarded career wise. And women who emulate those attributes get labeled “ball breaker” and aren’t rewarded. Women with more traditionally female skills (like consensus building or communication) don’t make the leap because those skills are less valued as you move up an organization. So women start to slip in pay performance as men hit their stride. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/47 "2011-04-15T17:41:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > If you think that divorce benefits women, you are insane. Women experience an average 40% decline in standard of living after a divorce, where men experience a 10% _rise_. Cite please. Never heard of this before. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/48 "2011-04-15T18:47:47Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Cite please. Never heard of this before. [Here you go.](http://www.jeremyfreese.com/docs/Peterson-Weitzman-Peterson%20-%20FullASRDebate.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/49 "2011-04-15T19:10:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I see the exact opposite–women win no matter which they choose. If they have kids and a career, then they are heroes for trying to have it all. If they leave work to raise kids, they are heroes for giving up their career (even if their “career” was a go-nowhere job they hated) to raise a family. I believe this is a genuine hardship that many men feel. What **even sven** expressed is a genuine hardship that women feel. Taken at face value, they both sound like they suck balls. To me it just underscores the fact that binary gender roles are damaging to everyone. There was a spot some months ago on NPR in which the hardships of men needing to take time out for child care was discussed. They were basically told, in so many words, that they could feel free to take care of their sick kid but not expect any career advancement if they did so. Yet research indicates that when child-rearing is distributed equally, the health of the mother, father, and child all benefit (and also there is more sex.) I believe our policies aren’t anti-woman so much as anti-family. If we really knew what was good for us, we’d stop arguing about who has it worse and unite in our demand for pro-family policies. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/50 "2011-04-15T21:56:54Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > [Here you go.](http://www.jeremyfreese.com/docs/Peterson-Weitzman-Peterson%20-%20FullASRDebate.pdf) Wtf? Did you actually read this before you linked to it? The data they’re using is from 1977. Got anything a little more up to date than a study based on 34 year old data? Further, how about a study that actually uses data taken from a peer reviewed publication, and not from a book printed in 1985 with data of unknown quality and provenance (literally, the whole point of the paper you linked to was demonstrating that _The Divorce Revolution_ erred when describing the standard of living for a divorced woman was 70% less than her married standard of living, using that books own data!) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/51 "2011-04-15T22:14:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > As for leave- I’m a fan of [Sweden’s method](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/10/world/europe/10iht-sweden.html), where fathers also get leave and are expected to take it. Some have tried to stuff the same stupid system down our throat. Fortunately so far without success. The Swedish maternity/paternity leave policy is very wrong. It is no business of the state to try to form and shape the citizens into some predetermined mould. If a family decides that it is best for them that the mother or father takes the whole leave, then they should be free to decide what they find must suitable for them, without the state sticking its busy nose in what should not concern it. If on the other hand it is important for a woman to have a career she is free to look for a man who will be happy to care for the children while they are young. (and btw. the last I read, from Norway which has a similar system, is that an apparent sizeable proportion of the men take the leave, send the kids to the kindergarten and then go hunting) ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/52 "2011-04-15T22:23:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Wtf? Did you actually read this . . . Just to be perfectly clear about who has met their burden of production and burden of persuasion . . . You object to the evidence **even sven** has furnished to back up her assertion, while you have offered no evidence for your (implied) claim that men and women fare equally after a divorce. You’d like us to agree with your not-at-all supported claim and are content to rely on undermining her evidence without going forward with any of your own? Is that an accurate description of how the evidentiary burdens have been met in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/53 "2011-04-15T22:43:44Z")
> [@Kimmy Gibbler](#): > > You object to the evidence even sven has furnished to back up her assertion, while you have offered no evidence for your (implied) claim that men and women fare equally after a divorce. **even sven** produced no evidence that backed up her assertion whatsoever. The figure of a 40% reduction in “quality of life” was never mentioned in the paper in question, the paper in question is using data that’s nearly 40 years old, and does not even purport to support **even sven** ’s position. For all your sophistry and circumlocution, you’re surely educated enough to understand where the burden of proof resides in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/54 "2011-04-16T03:24:38Z")
Here is something else to consider when it comes to male vs female earnings: Many, many more men are willing to pay for “it” than women, right?- I mean the ratio is damn sure 10-1, and it might be 50 or 100 to one. Hell, even 1000-1 isn’t out of the question. I mean, who has ever heard of a female “John” aside from that movie where Dustin Hoffman played Ratso Rizzo 50-plus years ago? And many, many more men are hetero than homo- about 85-15, right? And, payment for such “sevice” tends toward the stratospheric, as in _much_ more than the US President makes calculated on an hourly basis, even if the average “fee” is a lot less than what former Gov. Spitzer shellacked out, eh? Therefore with all the hoin’ around goin’ around women gots no gound to holler 'bout pay. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/55 "2011-04-16T03:32:45Z")
:dubious: We shouldn’t worry about the supposed pay gap between men and women because of prostitution? Even if your estimate of how much they make wasn’t wildly off, “prostitute” is not exactly considered as desirable a job as “President” by _either_ gender. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/56 "2011-04-16T03:48:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :dubious: We shouldn’t worry about the supposed pay gap between men and women because of prostitution? Let’s make that “The World’s Oldest Profession”, if you please! And yes, countless more billions of dollars are being channeled from men to women than in any othjer direction. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even if your estimate of how much they make wasn’t wildly off, The Prez makes $400k per year, equivalent to $200 per hour. That is about 10% of what Spitzer’s ho was making, and so not a bad place to start in guessing industry average. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “prostitute” is not exactly considered as desirable a job as “President” by _either_ gender. Maybe not, but that hasn’t put a dent in the number of job applications going back a few 1000 years before there was any such thing as a President. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/57 "2011-04-16T05:16:43Z")
I can’t believe I’m even having this conversation but… Some women can become high-class call girls. Some men can become professional football players. This has nothing to do with the earning capacity of the vast majority of people. In any case, economically speaking, the amount a woman could save during prime years of sex work (or course remembering that a significant chunk of women are not good candidates for sex work- go take a trip to the grocery store and count the ratio of women you would pay to have sex with vesus those you would not) would be making those earning at the cost of investing in a lifelong career- you are favoring short term earning potential over long term. In the end, I doubt it even evens out. Added to that, sex work is basically hazard pay- it exposes you to arrest (much like drug dealer face, which jacks up their prices) and also puts you in a very vulnerable position to become the victim of violence. We have a thread on this very board about a serial killer that targets prostitutes- which is actually pretty common. It’s a dangerous way to make money. Look at every other society around you- from Saudi Arabia to modern Japan. Are women in power? Given their sexual wiles and whatever, are they winning? In almost every case, throughout history, the answer is no. Women, in general, everywhere, all the time, have gotten the short end of the stick. This hasn’t magically resolved itself in the last couple decades. Chances are that the pattern we see in modern America have developed from the pattern we’ve seen in America’s past, and in history. I also agree it’s not useful to argue about “who has it worse.” Every gender role and expectation has an equal and opposite reaction on the other side, and all of us are constrained. But the whole “Oh poor men, not every woman will have sex with us at any given time, they must have ALL the power” thing really gets my goat. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/58 "2011-04-16T05:29:27Z")
In any case, my friends tell me that in the right company, men can also make a lucrative career as a prostitute. So it appears the tables really are even. Tell me, knowing that you could probably make a good amount of money having anal sex with men, why wouldn’t you take advantage of your obvious good fortune?! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/59 "2011-04-16T05:42:55Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > And yes, countless more billions of dollars are being channeled from men to women than in any othjer direction. Even if that’s so, there’s simply no reason to belive that it’s because of prostitution. Just the profits from divorce and the simple fact that women tend to outlive their husbands and inherit his property is going to outweigh a business which is mostly a matter of women being paid small amounts of money, most of which is taken away by a pimp. > [@colonial](#): > > The Prez makes $400k per year, equivalent to $200 per hour. > > That is about 10% of what Spitzer’s ho was making, and so not a bad place to start in guessing industry average. Don’t be silly. First, “ho”? That’s ridiculous. Second, a woman from an international escort service isn’t going to be anywhere _remotely_ near the median wage for prostitution. Third, Presidents get a wide variety of bribes\* and perks, and are invariably personally wealthy before and after being President; their official wage means little. > [@colonial](#): > > Maybe not, but that hasn’t put a dent in the number of job applications going back a few 1000 years before there was any such thing as a President. Because when the alternative is death by starvation or by beatings, prostitution becomes a “viable” alternative. - Let’s be honest; that’s exactly what campaign contributions actually are; officially sanctioned bribery. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413/60 "2011-04-16T05:52:56Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Generally, I suppose. Men and women with more education generally earn more than those without it. I have a feeling that this question was meant to be pointed however, but I am not quite sure I see what you’re driving at. I didn’t have a pointed question. I was asking a question because: I’m wondering what the number of men v. women in high paying graduate careers. If I am 33 years old, I may be embarking on a post-MBA/MA/PhD career. If I’m male, I may be more likely to be in a scientific or higher paying field. I also suspect that women are likely to go into fields with lower, uh, income glass ceilings. Less room for growth. For example: I’m a teacher. I’m not going to make any more than $70k/yr in my entire career if I’m_unusually lucky._ I have friends who make over $70k/yr right now being software engineers. Obviously if I marry a software engineer, he’ll always make more, but what if I marry an MBA student? I may make more right now at $34k while he slumbers through graduate school, but his $50k/year post-grad job has wide room for growth over the next 40 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-male-female-wage-gap/578413.md?page=4)