# "There is no poverty in Japan"--Hanh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 4, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320 "2002-07-04T05:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/1 "2002-07-04T05:04:36Z")
In the _New Yorker_, March 18, 2002, an article titled, “Shopping Rebellion”, by Rebecca Mead, sez: > [@](#): > > …Even in a society as affluent as Japan, where there’s no poverty to speak of… –and I went, “Hanh?” I thought poverty was just a basic part of the human condition. I’ve never heard of a human society that _didn’t_ have some kind of po’ folks. So I looked it up on Google and sure enough, not much is coming up under “japan poverty”, whereas “poverty u.s.” brings up tons of stuff. However, “tokyo slum” brings up references to, well, slums in Tokyo, specifically the “sanya slum district”. So what gives? There are non-poor people living in the slums? Or do the Japanese have a different definition of the word “slum”? This link has a picture of a Tokyo slum that looks pretty much like the slums I’m familiar with. [http://www.macalester.edu/courses/geog61/ksingh/epitome.htm](http://www.macalester.edu/courses/geog61/ksingh/epitome.htm) > [@](#): > > The area in Tokyo called Sanya (name written in Chinese characters for “mountain,”) is the closest equivalent to a slum. This area of the city is so segregated that no one goes to this ward, except the people who work and live here. It is considered the ‘underside of Tokyo’, a place inhabited by a large fraction of cast-offs of society and are ignored by urban society. Most maps of Tokyo too avoid the mentioning or location of this area. It is an area inhabited by about 45,000 people, and amongst them 7,000 live in flop houses. Most of the occupants are men, and majority of them are middle-aged or older, and many of them are a drifting population. Sanya is ignored by the developers and planners while social and urban problems continue to mount in this area. [Illustrated essay on homeless people in Tokyo](http://www.webcom.com/whills/Japan/Homeless/Homeless.html). And then there’s this. [http://www.asianweek.com/2001\_06\_15/biz2\_lifeinjapan.html](http://www.asianweek.com/2001_06_15/biz2_lifeinjapan.html) > [@](#): > > …Amid all the recession and downsizing, the average Japanese household still has more than $110,000 in savings, and the average salaried worker makes more than $40,000 a year. The wealth is on show for any visitor taking the highway from Tokyo’s international airport into the city, as terraced rice fields yield to skyscrapers and crisscrossing expressways. > > Prosperity is evident in the cars, shopwindows and cafes with their $5 cups of coffee, and automation still holds the nation in thrall, from the talking parking meters to the fake birdsong in hotel lobbies. > > \< snip \> > > The polar opposite, in modern Japan, is a place like Sanya…In this darkest side of the souring of the Japanese miracle live the jobless, the homeless, the alcoholics, the mentally ill. Men huddle around small bonfires on cold mornings, some already drinking sake or beer, others warming themselves before applying at a local employment agency for a day’s work. How are these people living, what are they using for income? Are they on welfare? The [CIA factbook](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ja.html) sez: > [@](#): > > One notable characteristic of the economy is the working together of manufacturers, suppliers, and distributors in closely-knit groups called keiretsu. A second basic feature has been the guarantee of lifetime employment for a substantial portion of the urban labor force. Both features are now eroding. Okay, so, these guys all lost their jobs? But what are they using to buy food, not to mention liquor? Is there a welfare/dole system? So, what am I missing here? A different definition of the word “poverty”? Or was Ms. Mead just talking through her hat? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/2 "2002-07-04T07:18:33Z")
Yep, there’s poverty in Japan. Perhaps (just a WAG) not as much as the US, but in most of the major parks and train stations around Tokyo, it’s not difficult to find plenty of homeless people. The lifetime employment system has broken down, but the unemployment benefits are still pretty generous. The payment period is based on a combination of age and length of time at your last job, with a 55-year-old who stayed at the same company for more than 25 years being eligible for 2-3 years’ worth (payment in all cases is 70% of your last salary). It’s possible some of these guys could have some money saved, but I don’t know. I’ve heard that a lot of homeless men work as day laborers on construction projects, earning enough to buy food (or alcohol), but not to rent a place to live, especially in an expensive place like Tokyo. As they get older and less able to do physical work, I don’t know what happens to them. The official statistics on homelessness are probably very inaccurate. Interviews I’ve read with homeless people living in ‘tent towns’ in the parks say that each month, before the government survey takers do their rounds, the police go through the park and make everyone pack up their houses so that when the inspectors come through, presto - no homelessness. From [this article:](http://www.metropolis.co.jp/tokyofeaturestories/386/tokyofeaturestoriesinc.htm) > [@](#): > > But he takes a dimmer view of the government handling of the situation. “Once a month, in order to verify there are no homeless in Tokyo, everybody is asked to move out for a few hours. Then they take photographs and show their higher-ups and say, ‘See, there aren’t any homeless here.’” Another interesting article on Tokyo homeless: [http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/05/14/fp1s3-csm.shtml](http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/05/14/fp1s3-csm.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/3 "2002-07-04T07:22:28Z")
Regarding Ms. Mead’s comment, it could be interpreted as true statement. There’s no poverty _to speak of_. It’s unpleasant to speak of such things, so polite folk don’t speak of them very often. I vote hat, though. ---
**Author:** ![Earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/4 "2002-07-04T08:15:38Z")
I see upon preview that **Sublight** has already replied, but since I’ve done all this typing, I’m posting it anyway. According to the [IPSS](http://www.ipss.go.jp/English/Jasos2001/p2-6.html) in Japan (from all I can tell, it’s a semi-governmental agency, and its name is too long to repeat), the poor are to be provided income support, and the unemployed should receive benefits as well. A quick scan through the [Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare](http://www.mhlw.go.jp/english/) turned up nothing substantial, but you may have better luck. Without governmental data, the [Asian Coalition for Housing Rights](http://www.achr.net/sup_japan.htm) may give us some light, however: > [@](#): > > The urban and rural poor…are expected to be covered by the government assistance measures to offset their earnings. Only less than 1% of the total population receive the assistance, [which] misleads us to grossly underestimate the magnitude of poverty… > > The…attitude of the public is to view the homeless to be idle, antipathetic to living with others, dirty and dangerous. Sounds to me like the Japanese public and government are pretty much in denial over the existence of the poor and are stingy with the funds. This stinginess is echoed by [another observer](http://www.nira.go.jp/publ/review/96spring/ander.html), who also notes: > [@](#): > > How can a country that leads in so many measures of socioeconomic life still cause many of its citizens to develop a strong sense of insecurity? This paradox is partially resolved by explaining welfare policies that cover many organized groups that demand social security, but still leave many others in danger of falling through the cracks of government mandated programs. So the same social fabric that protects most of the population will leave those who don’t fit within it out in the cold. The dearth of hits from your search is, then, probably due in part to the lack of anyone willing to report on the issues until things really get out of hand. Whether the sparse coverage caused Ms. Mead to make her (erroneous, IMO) statement, I can’t say. So how do the poor survive? Other than the “classics” of panhandling, dumpster diving, or day labor (all guesses on my part), they can also organize and take care of each other. From the above ACHR article: > [@](#): > > There are about 400 homeless people living in Shibuya ward…Their organization is called Nojiren…[which] has also created a community reserve fund…They have found a piece of idle land, and are negotiating with the owner so that the Nojiren could rent it as a community farm. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/5 "2002-07-04T10:04:19Z")
Also, there are NO homosexuals in Korea! Betcha didn’t know that! ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/6 "2002-07-04T10:43:20Z")
[CIA Factbook: percentage of population below poverty line](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/population_below_poverty_line.html) Sure, it’s all arbitrary, and a lot of these countries have “NA”% because either there isn’t accurate data (I’m thinking Afghanistan, e.g.), or 100% is below the predefined poverty line. But there’s also plenty of Western countries with “NA”%, meaning 0% are poor using the CIA’s definition. A few examples: Australia, Austria, Canada, Denmark, The Netherlands, Finland… Note that these are all countries with some sort of social safety net in place. The US, in comparison, has a score of 12.7%, and the UK 17%, even (which surprised me!). ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/7 "2002-07-04T11:09:14Z")
Been quite serious changes for the good in the past two years or so, **Coldie**. Strange statistic, though: High employment, low inflation, average levels of property ownership…my instinctive guess would be the figure is influenced (at least to some extent) by another unfortunate statistic; the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe - teen mothers, not great social benefits (apart from housing, of course), can’t work…classic case poverty trap. The US figure is an estimate… by a Government Agency. On Japanese poverty, I wonder if a distinction should be made between Japanese citizens and legal or illegal economic migrants - presumably the latter get full State benefits and the others not ? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/8 "2002-07-04T22:09:13Z")
I had a teacher who used to go on and on about Japan like it was some kind of Holy Grail. The class was about social dviance, and he claimed that Japanese people were so close knit and working toward the greater good and that’s why they had so much less crime than the individualism-loving Westerners. Of course, a rcent Japanese immigrant in my class was laughing. He then explained all about the gangs, cutting off fingers, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/9 "2002-07-04T22:37:07Z")
I don’t think there was any poverty in the Soviet Union, either. Nor is there in China. Goes to show how defensive some governments can get. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/10 "2002-07-04T23:02:56Z")
It sounds like severe denial is the standard Japanese method for coping with unpleasant realities. I once read that World War 2, and Japan’s actions in China and the South Pacific, is a completely taboo subject in the Land of the Rising Sun. So much so that most young Japanese people have never heard of World War 2, and would be stunned to learn that Japan and the US were at war in the 1940’s. ---
**Author:** ![Lodrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@Lodrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lodrain)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/11 "2002-07-04T23:37:24Z")
I highly doubt that (although it might have been true several years ago), **Diceman** - most Japanese would know that World War II happened. They feel incredible shame for it, even more so than the Germans - a teacher of mine told me about a Japanese exchange student he was hosting several years before. She saw a sign on a car dealership that said ‘Remember Pearl Harbor - Buy American’ (or words to that effect) and burst out in tears. The subject is almost never mentioned in history classes in Japan and it’s definitely not in good taste to talk about it around them. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/12 "2002-07-05T00:15:49Z")
umm, The Subject is almost NEVER talked about in history classes? am i the only person who finds that very disturbing? So by that line of reasoning, The Germans would be better off if they NEVER talked about the holocaust? There are still shrines in Japan dedicated to people who have been generally judged to be war criminals by anyone’s standards, but there are no statues of Hitler or Goering in Germany are there? It would seem quite clear to me who ended up on top in this comparison. Sorry about the hijack, but you perhaps may have found that this is a rather delicate issue with asian people. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/13 "2002-07-05T01:29:56Z")
Not sure what you are trying to say, **kawaiitentaclebeast**. It is true that the subject is almost never talked about in history classes. Most Japanese people go through school without learning about Nanjing and other actions by the Japanese during the war - at least, I did. The teachers don’t like it, but they are required to use the textbooks selected and approved by bureaucrats and politicians. Nobody here said this is a good thing, or that we are not disturbed by these facts. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/14 "2002-07-05T01:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diceman \* > \*\*It sounds like severe denial is the standard Japanese method for coping with unpleasant realities. I once read that World War 2, and Japan’s actions in China and the South Pacific, is a completely taboo subject in the Land of the Rising Sun. So much so that most young Japanese people have never heard of World War 2, and would be stunned to learn that Japan and the US were at war in the 1940’s. \*\* It is true that Japanese aggression before and during WWII is downplayed or avoided in most schools and public forums. Many young Japanese people may be unaware of such atrocities as the Rape of Nanking. But to claim that any significant number of Japanese youths, much less _most_ of them, are unaware that WWII ever took place or that Japan was ever at war with the US is both absurd and ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/15 "2002-07-05T02:38:53Z")
Well, this has all been quite fascinating, but now LC has opened yet another can of worms. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*On Japanese poverty, I wonder if a distinction should be made between Japanese citizens and legal or illegal economic migrants - presumably the latter get full State benefits and the others not ? \*\* And I went, “Hanh? How can they have illegal immigration in Japan? It’s an _island_, innit?” So I put “illegal immigration Japan” into Google and got [this:](http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/archive_mn/nov_1997-16mn.html) > [@](#): > > More than 1,070 illegal immigrants have been arrested in Japan since January, compared with 679 in all of 1996. The National Police Agency reports that 90 percent of the illegal immigrants arrested were Chinese, most from Fujian Province. > > \< snip \> > > Illegal aliens are not permitted to have public health insurance in Japan. And [this:](http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/archive_mn/oct_1997-21mn.html) > [@](#): > > In 1996, more foreigners were arrested for illegally working in Japan than were allowed to work legally as unskilled laborers. Presently, the only way an unskilled foreigner may work in Japan is as a trainee, and then for a maximum of three years. In 1996, 45,536 people entered Japan as trainees, and 47,785 foreigners were arrested for working illegally in Japan. > > Trainees receive a monthly stipend of $661 to $744; after the trainee passes a skills and Japanese-language proficiency test, he is considered a senior trainee, entitled to the same pay as a Japanese worker, or $2,000 to $3,000 per month. > > Almost daily, the Japanese press reports the arrests of unauthorized foreign workers. In late September, 18 illegal Asian workers, including 12 Pakistanis and four Iranians, were arrested with bogus passports or expired visas in eastern Japan while employed as factory workers and laborers; on September 16, 20 Chinese were arrested. Other foreigners apprehended found working illegally in September were from South Korea, China and the Ukraine. The deputy head of Japan’s national police agency, Setsuo Tanaka, plans to visit China to discuss migrant smuggling. So, I guess they do have an “illegal immigration problem” in Japan, but compared to the U.S.-Mexico problem, I have to say that it’s trivial. And how in the world would illegal aliens, or guest workers outstaying their visas, blend in, in such a tightly controlled society as Japan? Wouldn’t the people you worked with know when you were supposed to leave, and turn you in? Or is that eroding, too? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/16 "2002-07-05T03:00:13Z")
**Lamia** , please note that I was only repeating what I’d read. However, this kind of attitude does seem to be a part of the Japanese psyche. A trusted (asian) friend of mine swears that the suicide rate in Japan is far higher than the “official” figures, due largely to severe overwork and related factors. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/17 "2002-07-05T03:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*And how in the world would illegal aliens, or guest workers outstaying their visas, blend in, in such a tightly controlled society as Japan? Wouldn’t the people you worked with know when you were supposed to leave, and turn you in? Or is that eroding, too? \*\* Well, they (we) don’t blend in to Japanese society, regardless of visa status, and probably never will. On the other hand, the “those people all look alike” effect is pretty strong, which lets illegal aliens blend in pretty easily among the general foreign population. As for your second question, many employers are aware of their employee’s visa status. Many will either help their employees get legal again, or agree to look the other way. Some will give the workers the heave-ho, especially if it’s for a job that’s easy to fill, and a few will use the employee’s precarious status as a bargaining chip to squeeze more work out of them for less money. This last case probably happens most for blue-collar and “entertainment” workers, while most white-collar workers and people in hard-to-fill jobs would be more likely to get help renewing their visas. Is this also the case in the US? An anecdote in response to an earlier point: I was absoutely stunned when I discovered my gf (now wife) had never heard of the kamikaze of WWII. She knew the older meaning (a typhoon that had suddenly blown in during a Mongol invasion in the 13th century, destroying the invading force) and couldn’t figure out why Americans were using the word to mean “an all-out, last-ditch effort”. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/18 "2002-07-05T03:39:34Z")
Yeah, that’s pretty much the way it works here, except on a much vaster scale, of course. Twenty or thirty illegal aliens is just a single busload to the INS. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/19 "2002-07-05T08:25:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > So, I guess they do have an “illegal immigration problem” in Japan, but compared to the U.S.-Mexico problem, I have to say that it’s trivial. > > And how in the world would illegal aliens, or guest workers outstaying their visas, blend in, in such a tightly controlled society as Japan? Wouldn’t the people you worked with know when you were supposed to leave, and turn you in? Or is that eroding, too? Looks like I got my “latters” and “formers” back t’ front. Anyhoo, I guess the thing is, **Goosie** , they ones seen around bus stations and in the shanty area’s are the ones that _haven’t_ been detained i.e they’re indicative of the numberless. Japan’s not exactly geared up to deal with economic migrants in the way the US is so they don’t catch as many – or, perhaps, wish to acknowledge the scale of the problem. If things unfold as they do elsewhere, chances are this’ll become a more high profile and politicised issue once the tabloids pick up any perceived rise in the crime rate. How do they blend in – I guess a blind eye by the employers. Who wants to work for the rates they do and without social benefits ? Someone’s got to do those crappy jobs for crappy pay. ---
**Author:** ![Osakadave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f07891/32.png) [@Osakadave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Osakadave)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320/20 "2002-07-05T13:55:23Z")
As i understand it, many of the “illegals” originally came during the bubble era (late '80s), to work those crappy jobs. The jobs were called the “3-K” jobs, from the Japanese for dirty, dangerouys, and (IIRC) boring. They then overstayed their visas. To address the OP, no-one who has ever been thru Nishinari and Tennoji wards here in Osaka could ever say there was no poverty in japan. However, as with many things here, it’s a matter of face to deny that there might be any kind of dark side. I’ve been told other equally absurd things as there is no rape, there is no theft, and there is no crime of any sort here. Blatant truths that can be dismissed by simply looking around. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-poverty-in-japan-hanh/117320.md?page=2)