# There is no Pro-abortion movement **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372 "2006-11-14T13:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/1 "2006-11-14T13:08:41Z")
At least not in the way that you paint it. There is no movement seeking to give mandatory abortions to all men, women and children! The Catholic church have been on the offensive lately, seeking to restrict even more the rights of women, to the point of even banning abortion when the fetus is malformed or the woman has been a victim of rape. But that doesn’t bother me as much as the way the pro-choice movement has been painted on the press, it’s not the use of “pro-abortion” that grates me, it’s the dishonesty with which the “pro-lifers” argue the pro-choice arguments. They build giant strawmen and then set them on fire. Thousands of women die every year because they seek illegal abortions. Illegality hasn’t stopped them, the threat of shame, or even jail time hasn’t stopped them. What we are acomplishing is leaving families without mothers, sisters, or daughters, only because of a religious argument. > [@](#): > > [Estados Unidos - Noticias al momento - Diario Libre](http://diariolibre.com/app/article.aspx?id=77152) > Father Luis Rosario understands that if abortion is left unpunished then the same should be done with crimes such as murder, homicide, infanticide and all other crimes against life. > Translation mine > [@](#): > > [Estados Unidos - Noticias al momento - Diario Libre](http://diariolibre.com/app/article.aspx?id=74324) > “Why do doctos want to perfom abortions? This is what why we are against this contradiction, we are protesting against violence. Isn’t abortion violence against a helpless being? Let’s stop the foolishness. The best thing to do is ban abortion and period". > > Cardinal López Rodríguez satirized the announcement made by the medical asociation:"Nobody has the right to protest because they are being sanctioned; it would be as if the criminals were protesting because they are being persecuted”. Take into consideration that abortion is already illegal here. What the doctors disagree about is that it should be completely banned. They believe it should be an option when the fetus is unviable, the mother is danger or a victim of rape. For that our esteemed Cardinal Armani compares them to ‘criminals’. Somebody else said it better: > [@](#): > > [2006 | DR1.com](http://www.dr1.com/news/2006/) > According to Fr. Jose Luis Aleman, the Roman Catholic Church may commit excesses when it tries to force Dominican society to assume a determined behavior in which it does not believe. El Caribe reports that the economist stated that the Church cannot abdicate in the preaching of its opinion and that of its followers, but should not try to force people to adopt laws that adjust to its principles. He made these comments when referring to the issue of criminalizing or liberalizing the practice of abortion in this country, which is currently generating some public discussion. He said that the Church’s duty is to preach to its faithful that abortion is not allowed, but another thing is to try to get the state to adopt that principle, when a great part of the population does not accept it. “Historically, what has most harmed the Church is their attempt to force the population to follow what it believes is needed, or ethical” said the priest, after stating that this causes it to lose authority and credibility. > He was referring to the pressure that some sectors in the Church have exerted on the revisions made to the penal code. In the past abortion was permitted in cases where the fetus showed signs of abnormalities, or in the case of rape. The church has lobbied for the revised code to criminalize all abortions. The medical community has been vocal about its opposition to the change. And to Cardinal “Armani” Rodriguez: Fuck you! I am 36, married, in good finantial health and at any given time I am using at least two contraceptive methods, but I should not have more childrend for health reasons (and because I don’t want to). If I do get pregnant you bet your stinky ass that I will get an abortion. Regardless of what you think or feel. I am not going to leave my baby daughter orphaned on your say so. I am not going to fucking die because you don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/2 "2006-11-14T13:24:04Z")
The use of labels on the abortion issue has always been a source of confusion and deliberate attempts at smearing opponents. It would be more accurate to simply refer to anyone taking a stand as pro-abortion rights or anti-abortion rights, but this is an unrealistic expectation. Is it really something new for the Catholic church to oppose abortion in the case of fetal defects, however severe or fatal? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/3 "2006-11-14T15:03:25Z")
I read a book by anti-abortionist Randy Alcorn. Doctor says the fetus is deformed? “The doctor may be wrong. Deformed people may lead good lives. People shouldn’t be killed for being deformed.” Child conceived by rape? “It’s not the baby’s fault, so why kill him? If you found out your husband had been conceived by rape, would you kill him?” He states that anyone who is “pro-abortion rights” is “pro-abortion.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/4 "2006-11-14T15:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] at any given time I am using at least two contraceptive methods, but I should not have more childrend for health reasons (and because I don’t want to). If I do get pregnant you bet your stinky ass that I will get an abortion. Regardless of what you think or feel. [/QUOTE] You can add me to this list. You can make it illegal, you can do what you want. I. Don’t. Care. If I get pregnant today tomorrow or whenever I will abort it. I have made my choice and I also use two contraceptive methods. I never get involved in these abortion threads, usually, but I am here just to say that. It doesn’t matter what laws are passed. No one who passes the laws is standing in my shoes and has to have the baby they would force me to have. This is something I will break the law for if I have to. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/5 "2006-11-14T15:20:24Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] He states that anyone who is “pro-abortion rights” is “pro-abortion.” [/QUOTE] Hell, anyone who disagrees with him in whole or in part is “pro-abortion”. Leaving a lot of pro-life Catholics that I know very befuddled. As to the OP: Where is all of this taking place? ---
**Author:** ![dbuzman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@dbuzman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dbuzman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/6 "2006-11-14T16:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Hell, anyone who disagrees with him in whole or in part is “pro-abortion”. Leaving a lot of pro-life Catholics that I know very befuddled. As to the OP: Where is all of this taking place? [/QUOTE] I think Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, judging by the first link. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/7 "2006-11-14T16:12:25Z")
I know a few people who describe themselves as pro-abortion. They feel that the whole “necessary evil” view is wrong, because they believe there’s nothing wrong with abortion. There’s no reason not to be “pro”. These people are on the fringes, however, very extreme types. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/8 "2006-11-14T17:03:33Z")
Those “pro-abortion” people still aren’t pushing abortions on women who don’t want them. If a woman choses to carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to a rapist’s or a severely deformed child, that is her choice. Those people’s flip side are the people who think no one should ever have an abortion, even if she is carrying a fetus that could endanger her own health and would not survive after birh. Even so, you conceived it, you deliver it. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/9 "2006-11-14T17:10:10Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] He states that anyone who is “pro-abortion rights” is “pro-abortion.” [/QUOTE] Father Jose Luis Aleman, a catholic priest, would be surprised to find out. The pro-choice movement here is very weak, and even for them abortion is not their main agenda. They usually stand for and for comprehensive sex education in school, making contraception readily available to all women in reproductive age , and if all else fails, giving the woman the choice of terminating pregnancy, if she so choses. Painting them as pro-abortion implies that all they are about is abortion, when that is not the case. It doesn’t help that the Catholic church disagrees with every point in their agenda. What the Medical Association was protesting (en masse) was the possible total ban on abortion, in all cases. Which is just really criminal in my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/10 "2006-11-14T17:12:37Z")
And by the way, I hate the “pro-life” label too. What are we then, “pro-death”? Even when that means that we support a woman’s right to survive an unwanted (or gone bad) pregnancy? I guess it is only pro-embryo’s-life. Grown women need not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/11 "2006-11-14T17:16:51Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] I know a few people who describe themselves as pro-abortion. They feel that the whole “necessary evil” view is wrong, because they believe there’s nothing wrong with abortion. There’s no reason not to be “pro”. These people are on the fringes, however, very extreme types. [/QUOTE] Wow, this may be the very first time I’ve been an extreme fringe liberal-type! Cool. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/12 "2006-11-14T17:50:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Wow, this may be the very first time I’ve been an extreme fringe liberal-type! Cool. [/QUOTE] Well, I didn’t mean that automatically made one that way, but that the people I’m speaking of specifically are that way. Kind of a disclaimer that they’re not the best sample. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/13 "2006-11-14T18:04:45Z")
Just want to chime in on the terms (again) [QUOTE=Jackmannii] The use of labels on the abortion issue has always been a source of confusion and deliberate attempts at smearing opponents. [/QUOTE] Besides the attempt to smear, you have a basic different view of the issue. On one side they see the fetus as a human worthy of human rights. As such it is a matter of life - so one side is pro life and the other pro death. The rights of one person do not supercede the rights of the other, so the ‘right’ for women to kill another human being is invalid. The process of this state sponcered killing is called abortion, so pro-abortion is also a correct term also - from this point of view. OTHO you have the side that doesn’t see a fetus as human, or at least not worthy of human rights. As such it is one person’s decision what to do with this thing that if left alone should become a person sometime in the future, and it is reasonable to act now to decide if that person is to be formed. So the issue it choice, and the term pro-choice fits on this side of the isle. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/14 "2006-11-14T19:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] person do not supercede the rights of the other, so the ‘right’ for women to kill another human being [/QUOTE] You didn’t point out that “another human being” is a parasite in the woman’s own body. Does she have the right to end this parasitic relationship, or does the parasite’s right to stay in her body until it can survive on its own supersede it? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/15 "2006-11-14T19:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] You didn’t point out that “another human being” is a parasite in the woman’s own body. Does she have the right to end this parasitic relationship, or does the parasite’s right to stay in her body until it can survive on its own supersede it? [/QUOTE] Your right I didn’t point that out as I was just highlighting the different points of views from the 2 sides. It’s not: I support A vs I oppose A it is: I support A vs I support B, where A and B are mutually exclusive. So to side A you have Pro A and Anti A sides , for side B you have Pro B and Anti B, and is why the terms pro-life/anti-life/pro-death/pro-abortion, anti-abortion, pro-choice, and anti choice are so different, depending on what side you are on and they are valid depending on your initial premise. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/16 "2006-11-14T19:33:25Z")
Actually, the reason I firmly support keeping abortion legal is because I sincerely believe that making it illegal will result in more women dying from illegal abortions. Just as some who believe abortion should be illegal believe that one abortion is one death too many, so I believe that even one woman dying because she didn’t have access to a safe, legal abortion is one death too many. It seems to me that supporting banning abortion even when the life of the woman would be endangered by carrying the child to term isn’t supporting both lives that are at stake. Of course, that and a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/17 "2006-11-14T19:55:23Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] And by the way, I hate the “pro-life” label too. What are we then, “pro-death”? Even when that means that we support a woman’s right to survive an unwanted (or gone bad) pregnancy? [/QUOTE] I always thought that the pro-life and pro-choice labels were both effective and descriptive. Both labels emphasize the criterion that the group feels is of utmost importance. Some people infer that the other side has to be pro-death or against choice, but only because they try to take a complex issue and force exactly two sides out of it. > [@kanicbird](#): > > OTHO you have the side that doesn’t see a fetus as human, or at least not worthy of human rights. As such it is one person’s decision what to do with this thing that if left alone should become a person sometime in the future, and it is reasonable to act now to decide if that person is to be formed. So the issue it choice, and the term pro-choice fits on this side of the isle. I realize you were generalizing, but this does not necessarily describe the logic of all pro-choice people. In my opinion, the most effective argument for allowing abortion does not rely on the fetus’ lack of humanity or lack of human rights, but simply on the fact that a “right to life” does not include the right to force another human to provide the necessary life support. [Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “A Defense of Abortion”](http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/18 "2006-11-14T20:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=] I always thought that the pro-life and pro-choice labels were both effective and descriptive. Both labels emphasize the criterion that the group feels is of utmost importance. Some people infer that the other side has to be pro-death or against choice, but only because they try to take a complex issue and force exactly two sides out of it. [/QUOTE] Very well said! I don’t understand people who think their side, and only their side, should be able to pick the label that both sides use to describe themselves. Shows a lack of willingness to accept that the other side has a legitimate point of view, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/19 "2006-11-14T21:10:29Z")
[QUOTE=Mighty\_Girl] At least not in the way that you paint it. There is no movement seeking to give mandatory abortions to all men, women and children! [/QUOTE] Using that logic, anyone who calls himself “pro-gay” believes that homosexuality should be mandatory. Would you care to explain that to [these folks](http://www.progayjobs.com/)? Or [these](http://members.tripod.com/~progay_philippines/)? Or these? “But that’s different!” some would say. “They may call themselves ‘pro-gay,’ but obviously they don’t mean that everyone should be gay!” If you grant that distinction though, then one should logically conclude that the term “pro-abortion” does not mean that abortion should be mandatory. Not if consistency means anything, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/20 "2006-11-14T21:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=iamthewalrus(:3=] I always thought that the pro-life and pro-choice labels were both effective and descriptive. Both labels emphasize the criterion that the group feels is of utmost importance. [/QUOTE] I disagree. For a lot of pro-choicers, we don’t believe that freedom of choice should come above life; we just don’t think that a person’s life is taken with an abortion. It’s not choice over life, it’s choice over no choice. Of course, there are people who would consider freedom of choice to be above life. I’m just saying that you can’t generalize all pro-choicers that way. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372.md?page=2)