# There is no Pro-abortion movement **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2006, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372 "2006-11-14T13:08:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/41 "2006-11-15T01:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Exactly wrong. Arguing about labels does nothing to advance the argument of either side. **Nothing**. [/QUOTE] As you wish. If you prefer that opponents use these terms to thumb their noses at and demonize each other, continue to support deceptive and antagonistic labeling. Just don’t expect everyone to fall meekly into line. Let’s suppose that anti-gay marriage proponents organize sufficiently to demand that the news media consistently refer to them as “marriage defense advocates”. I’d hope that reporters and commentators would refuse to buy into such misleading silliness. Call your organization what you want, name your proposed legislation whatever you like - but don’t expect the media and public to regurgitate your distorted view of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/42 "2006-11-15T02:37:41Z")
That already happens. We have the Defense of Marriage Act. Do you suggest the media refer to it as something else? If so, then let’s call the Minimum Wage Act the Anti-Job Bill. If you like tilting at windmills, then make a big deal about what a group calls itself. If they call themselves the Defense of Marriage Alliance, then the media has to call them that, unless they want to editorialize. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/43 "2006-11-15T13:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] That already happens. We have the Defense of Marriage Act. Do you suggest the media refer to it as something else? [/quote] No. I see you’ve misread my post. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Call your organization what you want, name your proposed legislation whatever you like - but don’t expect the media and public to regurgitate **your distorted view of yourself**.(bolding added) What that means is that the media and public at large should promote accuracy and meaningful dialogue by referring _generally_ to these groups by accurate, non-confrontational labels. If a specific group wants to call itself “Right To Life” or “Marriage Defense Guerrilla Fighters”, OK - but the rest of us when referring to _the generic position_ can and should refer to anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage advocates, or something equally non-loaded and descriptive. Labels matter. Simply countering with “Do not!” is not meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/44 "2006-11-15T13:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No, unless you insist that pro-choicers lobby for school vouchers, and every other political issue that involves a choice. [/QUOTE] Well played, sir. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/45 "2006-11-15T14:05:24Z")
Nearly all the spun titles for the two sides of the abortion issue have been mentioned already, but we missed one. I say if their side gets to call us “pro-abortion,” then we get to call them “pro-mandatory-childbirth.” That’s the only option a pregnant woman will have, if their side wins. I have a retraction to make. I got two facts wrong about the bishops; the gathering is not over, and they did have something to say about the naughty couples who use modern methods of birth control. They also said gay Catholics should have only one Catholic option, celibacy. :rolleyes: I stand by my propeller joke, though. I’m proud of that one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/46 "2006-11-15T14:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I prefer “anti-choice.” [/QUOTE] I think they’re both, really. Anti-choice may be less loaded a term, and it’s appropriate, but doesn’t capture the whole essence of the twisted thinking present on that “side”. One thing I cannot figure out is why if they are anti-abortion, they are not pro-birth control (supposedly many of them are, but they don’t seem to get a lot of airplay or publicity). Abstinence just plain old doesn’t work. Maybe “pro-life” should be called “pro-ignorance”. **Asknott** -I heard a snippet of the bishops meeting on NPR yesterday. Could it get more convulated? Sooner or later, the Church will fall over due to it’s whirling dervish of spiralled reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/47 "2006-11-15T14:40:06Z")
Pro-fetal rights Anti-fetal rights ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/48 "2006-11-15T14:57:21Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Pro-fetal rights Anti-fetal rights [/QUOTE] Or more accurately (in some countries) Anti-embryo rights. ---
**Author:** ![Autumn\_Almanac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d26b3c/32.png) [@Autumn\_Almanac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autumn_Almanac)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/49 "2006-11-15T15:01:18Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] I prefer “anti-choice.” [/QUOTE] Pro-lifer chiming in: “Anti-choice” is fine by me. In fact I’ve always been a little puzzled by its use as a term of derision. After all, it does accurately describe the pro-life position (where “choice” is shorthand for “choice to legally abort a pregancy”). What’s the negative connotation supposed to be? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/50 "2006-11-15T15:03:43Z")
You\* will all excuse me if I don’t let an organization in which a woman will never reach a decision-making position to tell me what I should do or not with my body. We count for nothing in the Catholic church, except when they want to tell us how, when and under which conditions to spread our legs. TVM, but no. \*You as in Catholics who wants to ban abortions ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/51 "2006-11-15T15:04:05Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] No. I see you’ve misread my post. [/quote] No, you misread your post: > [@](#): > > Let’s suppose that anti-gay marriage proponents organize sufficiently to demand that the news media consistently refer to them as “marriage defense advocates”. I’d hope that **reporters and commentators would refuse to buy into such misleading silliness**. Emphasis added. > [@](#): > > What that means is that the media and public at large should promote accuracy and meaningful dialogue by referring _generally_ to these groups by accurate, non-confrontational labels. If a specific group wants to call itself “Right To Life” or “Marriage Defense Guerrilla Fighters”, OK - but the rest of us when referring to _the generic position_ can and should refer to anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage advocates, or something equally non-loaded and descriptive. > > Labels matter. Simply countering with “Do not!” is not meaningful. Who are you refering to in the “us” category? You and I are pro-choice, but some posters here are not. Should they refer to us as “baby killers”? That’s what they think we are. Sounds to me like you are advocating a rhetoric war, and that will only distract the discussion form the salient points. And when you say the press should only use accurate labels, who decides what is accurate? You seem to be assuming that “the press” is always going to be on your side. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/52 "2006-11-15T15:05:28Z")
[QUOTE=Autumn Almanac] Pro-lifer chiming in: “Anti-choice” is fine by me. In fact I’ve always been a little puzzled by its use as a term of derision. After all, it does accurately describe the pro-life position (where “choice” is shorthand for “choice to legally abort a pregancy”). What’s the negative connotation supposed to be? [/QUOTE] I think that it’s the whole “anti-” tag. Very few people are comfortable with, let alone clamber to be branded, “anti-” anything. I go with pro-life and pro-choice. As an added bonus, my terminology doesn’t require a readjustment. Because I’m all about comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/53 "2006-11-15T15:06:17Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby] **Asknott** -I heard a snippet of the bishops meeting on NPR yesterday. Could it get more convulated? Sooner or later, the Church will fall over due to it’s whirling dervish of spiralled reasoning. [/QUOTE] For those of you who are interested, more information on what the American Catholic bishops have been discussing can be found http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06319/738380-84.stm The story’s been fairly well covered by the local paper, probably because of the large number of Catholics in my city. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/54 "2006-11-15T15:08:11Z")
[QUOTE=Siege] For those of you who are interested, more information on what the American Catholic bishops have been discussing can be found http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06319/738380-84.stm The story’s been fairly well covered by the local paper, probably because of the large number of Catholics in my city. [/QUOTE] Erm . . . make that [here](http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06319/738380-84.stm). Sorry. I was rushing and got things backward. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/55 "2006-11-15T15:52:51Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Pro-fetal rights Anti-fetal rights [/QUOTE] I believe that a fetus can have precisely the same rights as I do. I am still very pro abortion rights. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/56 "2006-11-15T16:14:32Z")
John, your confusion should have been cleared up by now. Either you know what I was saying and are just being argumentative to no purpose, or you’re hopelessly obtuse. > [@](#): > > Who are you refering to in the “us” category? You and I are pro-choice, but some posters here are not. Since I mentioned I do not like either of the terms “pro-life” or “pro-choice”, it should be obvious that those of us who do not appreciate obfuscation and confrontational terminology should use accurate labels. > [@](#): > > Sounds to me like you are advocating a rhetoric war This falls back into the realm of deliberate obtuseness, since I’ve repeatedly said that use of inflammatory labels inhibits understanding and rational discourse. > [@](#): > > And when you say the press should only use accurate labels, who decides what is accurate? You seem to be assuming that “the press” is always going to be on your side. I expect the news media to use accurately descriptive terms to refer to members of any political or social movement without falling into the trap of using misleading labels. Before responding, think about whether you have read this and previous posts accurately before distorting my views any further. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/57 "2006-11-15T16:17:37Z")
If you do not believe in abortion, then I think you shouldn’t have one. The logical step I can’t follow is "I do not believe in abortion. I am so right about it, that you should not have one either. I have the moral and ethical power to decide for you. Overstepping a little .dont you think. Who put your fine ethical and moral values in charge of my life? Bringing an unwanted child into the world has always been a problem for the child and family. If they can’t afford a child and feel they are unable to raise it.,how does your morality give you the right to make that decision for them. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/58 "2006-11-15T16:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] If you do not believe in abortion, then I think you shouldn’t have one. The logical step I can’t follow is "I do not believe in abortion. I am so right about it, that you should not have one either. I have the moral and ethical power to decide for you. Overstepping a little .dont you think. Who put your fine ethical and moral values in charge of my life? Bringing an unwanted child into the world has always been a problem for the child and family. If they can’t afford a child and feel they are unable to raise it.,how does your morality give you the right to make that decision for them. [/QUOTE] I’ve never understood that logic. Personally, I am not interested to much in the legalities of abortion. Regardless, I think they are morally wrong in just about every circumstance. I believe wholeheartedly that a human life is being destroyed in an abortion. If this is my belief, why on earth would I only be concerned with my own actions in this regard? You could just as easily say, “if you don’t like child abuse, don’t abuse your child, but don’t tell someone else they shouldn’t do it.” Or, “if you don’t think stealing is right, then don’t steal, but don’t tell someone else what is right for them.” In regards to the OP, I agree with **John Mace** …I think it is nothing but playing politics when you deliberately use a label that describes what YOU think the “other side’s” position is, based on your own prejudices on the matter. This goes for both sides, IMO, who are both guilty of doing this. “Pro-choice” and “pro-life” are both perfectly acceptable terms, and more importantly, their meaning is more or less universally understood. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/59 "2006-11-15T16:30:37Z")
No woman is truly free unless she can control her own reproductive life. That was first said before I was born, and I’ve probably misquoted it slightly. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372/60 "2006-11-15T16:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] No woman is truly free unless she can control her own reproductive life. That was first said before I was born, and I’ve probably misquoted it slightly. [/QUOTE] Which is a great slogan, but unfortunately translates pretty much to “My right to an abortion is founded in how much I want it”, and that doesn’t quite so dignified. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > …You could just as easily say, “if you don’t like child abuse, don’t abuse your child, but don’t tell someone else they shouldn’t do it.” Or, “if you don’t think stealing is right, then don’t steal, but don’t tell someone else what is right for them.” _Eso si que es_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-pro-abortion-movement/380372.md?page=4)