# There is no Santa **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 26, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234 "2005-12-26T06:33:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/41 "2005-12-26T22:03:57Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > What kind of knucklehead puts a moral value on lying to children? Alternatively, what sort of utterly ignorant person in 2005 still believes the Mrs. Grundy _(no relation to Sol)_ view of the world that actually thinks that engaging in fantasy is the same as lying? As I have already pointed out, the discovery that various imaginary gift-givers are, indeed, imaginary, is part of a normal and healthy growing experience. Just as it is stupid and hateful to sit a kid down in the corner and harangue the child until s/he admits that s/he has no imaginary friend, it is a sign of an over-literal lack of imagination on the part of an adult to claim that Santa and his buddies are a “lie.” No one should be forced to tell children that there is a Santa/tooth-fairy/Easter Bunny/Kachina/whatever, but the story is already in the culture and it is not “lying” to tell the story until the child figures out the “truth.” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/42 "2005-12-26T22:17:30Z")
Since when does “childhood imagination” equal “lying”? You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a “champion of truth” need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development. Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to “put away childish things,” that’s between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/43 "2005-12-26T22:28:02Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Since when does “childhood imagination” equal “lying”? > > You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a “champion of truth” need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development. > > Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to “put away childish things,” that’s between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career. I don’t think anyone has defended her: a few people have expressed discomfort at the idea of the Santa Claus story (and to me that just suggests that people are reflecting on cultural norms, not just adopting them, and that’s a Good Thing), but they have all said that it’s a matter between parent and child: other people have quibbled over the details of what, if any action should be taken, but no one has defended her actions out right. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/44 "2005-12-26T22:30:49Z")
**tomndebb** wrote: > [@](#): > > Just as it is stupid and hateful to sit a kid down in the corner and harangue the child until s/he admits that s/he has no imaginary friend, it is a sign of an over-literal lack of imagination on the part of an adult to claim that Santa and his buddies are a “lie.” Indulging in a personal, idiosyncratic fantasy is another matter altogether. Now, if my child had an imaginary friend that was just a copy of one out of a book, then I’d harangue the kid, but only out of concern. > [@](#): > > You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a “champion of truth” need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development. I’ll buy that imagination has a function in cognitive development. But I think you’re giving the child way too little credit if you think you have to feed the kid a lie and get your whole society to play along. If a kid’s got any imagination at all, it’ll come out no matter what you do. If not, there’s always middle management. ---
**Author:** ![someone447](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@someone447](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/someone447)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/45 "2005-12-26T22:40:29Z")
When I was little, I enjoyed the Santa myth. Did I ever get mad at my parents for lying about it? Probably, but the anticipation of Santa getting me something and going to visit him in the mall was just so much fun. Those were my favorite christmases, probably until I have my own kids and I see the look on their face when they see what “santa” got them. I remember my parents telling us, Santa isn’t going to come while you are awake. Me, and my little brother and sister would all sleep in the same room. We would stay up all night trying to hear santa. We would wake up at 6 o’clock(if not earlier) and run into my parents room yelling, “Santa’s been here, Santa’s been here!!!” Honestly, what is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/46 "2005-12-26T22:41:07Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Since when does “childhood imagination” equal “lying”? > > You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a “champion of truth” need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development. > > Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to “put away childish things,” that’s between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career. A reindeer cookie for **lissener**. I agree with everything but the lawsuit. There _has_ to be another way. Too bad John Candy’s dead. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/47 "2005-12-26T23:12:55Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > Putting the satirical mask aside for the moment, there probably is something to be said for the object lesson that people aren’t to be trusted, even your parents. We fill our world with personifications that are meant to instill desired behavior and attitudes, and we have established a starter myth around which a child may build cynicism like a pearl around a bit of sand, ready to face the lies that are to come. You know, this makes sense. But… It doesn’t happen. My parents indulged in the Santa myth, but when I found out, I didn’t lose trust in them or anything like that. And I don’t know anyone who did. It would seem that kids are smarter than you’re assuming and can separate an important lie from an unimportant one. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/48 "2005-12-26T23:15:14Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Since when does “childhood imagination” equal “lying”? > > You kneejerk contrarians who want to defend this jerk for being a “champion of truth” need to do a little research on the value that imagination has in human cognitive development. > > Imagination in small children should be encouraged, not quashed. And when it is time to “put away childish things,” that’s between the child and the parents. What this teacher did was a massive invasion of privacy and she should be severely disciplined. I hope some of the parents sue her out of a career. This is very well said. My “son” and his wife, mother, and I are engaged in a conspiracy with regard to his kids, with the best of intentions. We normally give them age-appropriate truths, but every so often will throw in a “zinger,” and they’re aware that we do just that. The game is for them to identify and disprove/debunk the zingers. The idea is to teach them critical thinking and not to depend on the accuracy of “authority.” And they love it; it’s an element of growing up to catch us in one of the “zingers” and challenge it. (Most recently: found and proved that “buffalo wings” are chicken wings with a hot sauce from Buffalo, NY, not vestigial wings grown by plains bison (they clip them off the buffalo in the zoo). his dad and I got a 10-year-old with arms akimbo and a mock-exasperated look on his face with that one.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/49 "2005-12-26T23:25:04Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > if you think you have to feed the kid a lie and get your whole society to play along It is not a “lie,” it is a story. Your insistence on using the word “lie” indicates that you are pretty much trapped in a world view that insists on a black-and-white perception of reality. I’m not sure why you would choose to align yourself with the most dour and uncompromising of the most extreme religious fanatics, but I guess if that is what makes you happy… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/50 "2005-12-26T23:52:40Z")
**tomndebb** wrote: > [@](#): > > It is not a “lie,” it is a story. Did that line work on your parents? Because I got my hide tanned for trying it. To their narrow-minded way of thinking, if I said something I knew wasn’t true and I expected to be believed, it was a lie. Even apparently if I was aware the truth would come out later and no harm would be done. I’m going to call them up right now and bawl them out for their religious fanaticism. What the hell kinds of values were they trying to teach, feeding us this line about so-called “lies.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/51 "2005-12-26T23:57:49Z")
Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/52 "2005-12-27T00:05:42Z")
**tomndebb** wrote: > [@](#): > > Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today. When I was a child we couldn’t afford “lies” or “stories.” We had bullshit, horseshit and crocks of shit – and we had to get up at four in the morning and sort them out before we went to school. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/53 "2005-12-27T00:09:41Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > When I was a child we couldn’t afford “lies” or “stories.” We had bullshit, horseshit and crocks of shit – and we had to get up at four in the morning and sort them out before we went to school. Let me guess. Uphill both ways through thirty feet of snow? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/54 "2005-12-27T00:30:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, if you were raised the way you now portray your youth, that would explain your inability to distinguish between lies and stories, today. Interestingly, though, Santa is not presented as a “story.” If it were, why would it be such a big deal for someone to say, “you know, Santa isn’t real.” Or, “You know, St. Nicholas died 1500 years ago.” The response would be, “Yeah, so.” Because if it’s just a story, or just a nice game of pretend, it’s not going to be ruined by someone pointing out that it is, in fact, pretend. When my kids are playing pretend, with a story, and I say something like, “You know, don’t you, that you can’t really fly?” they don’t cry or say I’ve ruined the game. They say, “Yeah.” And then they go on with the game. But all too often the response is “why are you ruining Christmas?” or “Why can’t you let kids have their fun?” I’ve known parents, personally, to be in extreme anxiety over someone letting the “secret” slip in front of their kids. If it was just a story, why is a kid in tears at the thought Santa is dead? Why go to all the trouble to convince the kids? It’s intended to deceive, that’s the truth of the matter. And nobody is going to be scarred for life by it, and no doubt the parents who engage in it think it’s cute. But it’s still a lie, harmless or not. I don’t go around evangelizing against Santa, and what other families do for their own traditions is their own business. But it does trouble me that when it’s culturally common and accepted to tell kids something that isn’t true, it’s “just a story” even though adults become distressed at the idea of kids learning that it is, in fact, pretend. Sorry, it’s not “just a story” if it’s going to upset your kid to find out that it’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/55 "2005-12-27T00:40:10Z")
Does anyone have a link to another version of the story? The one linked to here is the easiest to find, and it’s clearly a human-interest thing loaded with the crying children and crushed dreams and such. But a search on Google doesn’t give any other descriptions of the actual events, just a bunch of blogs either saying “She killed Christmas!!!” or “She is a Champion Of Truth!!!” A friend insists he read a version saying that she was responding to a question from a student, not volunteering her “truth.” That doesn’t change the core objection, but it would mitigate her involvement a little bit, turning her from a self-righteous bitch into someone who has no class and doesn’t know how to handle children. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/56 "2005-12-27T01:43:35Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Read some of the recent reviews of her very silly looking (and apparently self published) [book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0965695573/qid=1135583085/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3850386-1917607?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) at Amazon. > > A review of her other self-published book might be revealing: “Theresa writes with a unique conversational style that may be off-putting to some, and she makes frequent mention of her devotion to God.” > > Hmm. Wonder if “truth” was her primary motivator, or was it possibly dismissive attitude toward belief systems that differ from hers? Not that Santa Claus is a belief system. Only, maybe she’s, like, one of those people who don’t have sex because it might lead to dancing. Aren’t they all anti-Santa and Easter Bunny? All “secularization of Xmas” and junk? > > I’m just sayin. With the current controversy over the “War on Christmas”, I have just a bit of schadenfreude in contemplating the stance that the Religious Right would take on this. This is no win for them; they are party poopers if they support her, or else endorsing the commercialization of Christmas if they do not. The funny thing is that the Christian religion is based upon a belief in miracles as equally fantastic as that of Santa Claus. The history goes back a little further, that’s all. Raised in a Christian household, for those who were wondering, and believed in Santa too. Never saw much point in the Easter Bunny, though… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/57 "2005-12-27T03:43:36Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > **tomndebb** wrote: > > Did that line work on your parents? Because I got my hide tanned for trying it. To their narrow-minded way of thinking, if I said something I knew wasn’t true and I expected to be believed, it was a lie. Even apparently if I was aware the truth would come out later and no harm would be done. I’m going to call them up right now and bawl them out for their religious fanaticism. What the hell kinds of values were they trying to teach, feeding us this line about so-called “lies.” I’m betting you were a blast at birthday parties when you were a kid. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/58 "2005-12-27T05:19:33Z")
**Harborwolf** wrote: > [@](#): > > Let me guess. Uphill both ways through thirty feet of snow? You had snow? Where I come from it rained ninja stars every day. **Bren\_Cameron** wrote: > [@](#): > > Interestingly, though, Santa is not presented as a “story.” If it were, why would it be such a big deal for someone to say, “you know, Santa isn’t real.” Or, “You know, St. Nicholas died 1500 years ago.” That’s a good point. Does the “Just a Story” defense hold up given that people perjure themselves so deeply over it – even planting trumped-up evidence? **Guinastasia** wrote: > [@](#): > > I’m betting you were a blast at birthday parties when you were a kid. Hmmmm. So, I take it you weren’t? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/59 "2005-12-27T05:24:32Z")
> [@Johnny Angel](#): > > . . . Does the “Just a Story” defense hold up given that people perjure themselves so deeply over it – even planting trumped-up evidence? . . . Dude, you are seriously wacked. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/60 "2005-12-27T07:24:32Z")
I don’t see what all the vitriol is about. On the one hand, I think what the teacher said was off-topic and unnecessary. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s worth getting seriously upset about. Basically, I think the teacher should have known how upset people would be and therefore, since there really isn’t anything significant gained by telling the kiddies that Santa isn’t real, should have refrained from doing so. But the fact that she gave factual, non-harmful information to children shouldn’t cause parents to get their undies in a twist. Schools do not have an obligation to avoid puncturing myths that parents teach their children. Santa is no different from Creationism, flat-earth theories, or stories about Washington chopping down a cherry tree in this regard. If they want, parents can tell their children, “Well, obviously she thinks Santa isn’t real because she’s such a naughty lady that he doesn’t bother to visit her house.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234.md?page=4)