# There is no Santa **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 26, 2005, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234 "2005-12-26T06:33:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/101 "2005-12-31T02:16:01Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I sincerely doubt that the individuals in question in this topic, to wit, **Johnny Angel** and **Sequent** , actually bear those monikers as their legal names. Clearly, then, they are lying. 😉 😃 Good man leaving me out of that one. As some know, Seven is my real , legal name ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/102 "2005-12-31T12:10:08Z")
Look, regardless of whether or not you think telling your kids that Santa really exists is a good idea, only a self-important jackass gets all offended that other people do it and starts crying about how they’re “LYING TO _CHILDREN_.” It’s obviously a harmless lie, so how is it any of your damn business? And only a complete asshole is so offended by it that she takes it upon herself to inform a roomfull of kids that their parents are liars when no one even asked a _question_ about Santa. They were just reading a poem. You don’t have some sort of moral duty to expose every one of the multitude of lies most parents tell to their kids. Get a fucking life. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/103 "2005-12-31T12:14:38Z")
And if you _are_ going to start some sort of “Don’t ever lie to your kids” crusade, you could pick a better lie to target than “Some fat elf brings you presents.” Hell, my dad told me I’d had an older brother who was eaten by the boogey man. _And_ he planted a tape recorder under my bed with a boogey man voice saying he was coming for me next . . . . ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/104 "2005-12-31T12:29:15Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Seems to me at some point one must just tell them the truth. You know, fight ignorance and all? Thank goodness someone finally said it. I was starting to worry that the SDMB was broken. > [@Una Persson](#): > > **Re: Church’s “Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus” editorial** > And I wish you had read it and understood it yourself, so you knew how silly you look saying this. Well apparently you have to enlighten the rest of us on your deeper understanding of the editorial. The version I read has _absolutely nothing_ to do with the self-serving politicizing you wrote on here. Maybe you can do me a favor and [read it again](http://beebo.org/smackerels/yes-virginia.html). Point out to those of us who is ignorants how you can manage to take one of the most well-known, concise, and poetic descriptions of the nature of faith and belief in the face of cold skepticism and arrogance, and turn it into a defense of your own opinion that the beauty of Christmas requires people to impose their own opinions on children and dismiss their family traditions as a “lie.” While you’re at it, explain how the beauty of Christmas means giving a condescending _tsk tsk_ to parents who are upset at someone else’s intrusion on their traditions. And how the magic of the season allows you to turn down your nose at the evil parents who tell their kids about Santa Claus instead of doing enough for poor, homeless, and runaway children. Because, ignorant person than I am, I always thought that the point of the article was how the _real_ truth is much greater than rational analysis and what can be observed and measured. I never understood the subtle nuances that suggest the real spirit of Christmas is dumping on children and then calling their parents stupid liars. > [@Una Persson](#): > > Just speaking out loud, given how angry people on here get over the least insinuation of religion into public schools, it’s somewhat hypocritical for some to be damning one faith-based completely un-scientific belief system while saying another one can and must stay unchallenged. There you go. How’s that defending The Truth working out for you? This isn’t _really_ about Santa Claus and allowing children to enjoy a story free of cynicism and skepticism. It’s _really_ about the separation of Church and State. Just speaking out loud, it seems somewhat hypocritical to upset children by intruding on a tradition, claim that there’s somehow something _noble_ about that by putting the “Champion Of Rational Truth” spin on it, and _then_ go on to say that it’s just the hyper-religious “professional bellyachers” who are going on the assault and blowing the nonsense out of proportion. Seems a shame that the first casualties in the “war on ignorance” are always decency, consideration for others, and just plain basic common sense. > [@Una Persson](#): > > If one takes the kid aside and tells just them the truth, we know where that ends up - the kid ends up getting into a fight with the others over it, and teacher has to moderate and finally come clean, otherwise the kid that speaks the truth gets their ass beaten every day by the other kids for not believing in the Cult of Rudolph. Um. Yeah. I still remember when my nursery school had to install metal detectors, the Anti-Truth Pro-Santa gang violence had gotten so out of control. We were just kids, then, so we couldn’t moan about being martyred for our beliefs on the internets. We just had to make do with the beatings and being stabbed by candy cane shivs. You’re gonna have to remind me, **Una** : who exactly are the professional arguers and bellyachers, again? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/105 "2005-12-31T14:04:16Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > Well apparently you have to enlighten the rest of us on your deeper understanding of the editorial. The version I read has _absolutely nothing_ to do with the self-serving politicizing you wrote on here. Maybe you can do me a favor and [read it again](http://beebo.org/smackerels/yes-virginia.html). Point out to those of us who is ignorants how you can manage to take one of the most well-known, concise, and poetic descriptions of the nature of faith and belief in the face of cold skepticism and arrogance, and turn it into a defense of your own opinion that \*\*the beauty of Christmas requires people to impose their own opinions on children and dismiss their family traditions as a “lie.” That’s a strawman, because I never said that. > [@Me](#): > > IMO whole point of Christmas is supposed to be the sharing and caring and love people show towards each other, the festiveness and hope for a better year to come, gathering of families and friends, and yes, giving gifts as a show of affection or to provide comfort to people. Telling children the truth about what Christmas is supposed to mean **seems to be a bit better than saying** “don’t worry, Santa will take care of everything, including all those poor/homeless/runaway children and their families”. OK, that excludes the middle, but then so do a lot of the parents I know. > > The beauty of Christmas is in no way diminished or enhanced by Santa. Christmas is bigger than Santa, or else if damn well should be. I don’t see how that offends you so. I’m saying that given the two options, telling the truth about what Christmas means is the best path for, ironically, letting children know about what Christmas means, as opposed to being in the Santa myth. I’m sorry if Christmas == Santa to some people, but they need to become less ignorant if they really want to know what Christmas means. Furthermore, I added this: > [@Me](#): > > I think what people opposed to the teacher’s actions should really be saying is that **the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this.** That is, say “You need to ask your parents about Santa Claus; this is school and we’re going to learn about Eigenvalues now…” I said nothing about forcing children to not believe in Santa, or going out of one’s way to impose the unbelief on them. I said that “the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this”. If that’s not comprehensible to you, then there’s no point in talking. You have badly misrepresented the words I wrote which are right here in this thread. I think in your mind you’ve added what others have said to what I’ve said rather than viewing each post independently. Maybe if you re-do your post, but instead damn me for the things I’ve actually said, you’ll have more of a point. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > While you’re at it, explain how the beauty of Christmas means giving a condescending _tsk tsk_ to parents who are upset at someone else’s intrusion on their traditions. And how the magic of the season allows you to turn down your nose at the evil parents who tell their kids about Santa Claus instead of doing enough for poor, homeless, and runaway children. Another strawman. People here can read what I actually wrote: > [@Me](#): > > **the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this.** That is, say “You need to ask your parents about Santa Claus; this is school and we’re going to learn about Eigenvalues now…” Once again, I think you’re adding the content and meaning of other people’s posts to mine. Well, I’m not going to give you a fight like you seem to want, because what I wrote was apparently clear enough to the other hundreds who presumably read it. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > Um. Yeah. I still remember when my nursery school had to install metal detectors, the Anti-Truth Pro-Santa gang violence had gotten so out of control. We were just kids, then, so we couldn’t moan about being martyred for our beliefs on the internets. We just had to make do with the beatings and being stabbed by candy cane shivs. Is this a strawman yet again? Evidently you don’t know much about elementary schools and the things kids do to those who don’t fit into the group opinion. Maybe you were home-schooled, or one of those Brazilian superbabies that never needed to go to school. One can cover their ears and close their eyes and pretend like kids don’t gang up on others who hold a differing opinion on stupid, pointless shit, but it still happens. In 2nd grade, I saw a kid beaten up because _he insisted the planet Pluto was smaller than Mercury!_ If that doesn’t give one an idea of elementary class politics and mob behaviour, nothing will. A child who tries to speak out and tell other children that there is no Santa is likely to get a virtual bullseye on them. Given the hysterical reactions of some children reported in the article, that doesn’t seem like a stretch. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > You’re gonna have to remind me, **Una** : who exactly are the professional arguers and bellyachers, again? Who do you think? I’m one of them, certainly. I posted an opinion piece and said I wasn’t interested in a debate. However, you’ve deliberately misrepresented what I wrote so badly that in most forums you would have got a warning or caution from a Moderator, so I feel I need to clarify things since that’s not going to happen here. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234/106 "2006-01-01T02:35:49Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > I said nothing about forcing children to not believe in Santa, or going out of one’s way to impose the unbelief on them. I said that “the teacher should either say nothing OR defer to the parents on matters like this”. If that’s not comprehensible to you, then there’s no point in talking. No, that is the one and only part of your post that I completely skipped over, mis-read, and mis-interpreted. Mea culpa. That is exactly the conclusion everyone should take from all this nonsense. As for the rest, I have to say I stand by my interpretation of **the rest of** what you wrote. I would admit it if I thought I’d conflated yours with other posts, but I don’t believe I did. > [@Una Persson](#): > > Who do you think? I’m one of them, certainly. I posted an opinion piece and said I wasn’t interested in a debate. However, you’ve deliberately misrepresented what I wrote so badly that in most forums you would have got a warning or caution from a Moderator, so I feel I need to clarify things since that’s not going to happen here. There are still moderators for this forum, and the “report this post” button still works better than an implied threat of moderator intervention. I can and will go through a quote-by-quote explanation of what you said and how I read it and how it’s neither a misrepresentation nor a “strawman” if you want. But considering that neither of us want a debate, your follow-up clarified your opinions, and we both came to the same conclusion, it would be pointless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-santa/337234.md?page=5)