# There is no war on terror says UK DPP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 24, 2007, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218 "2007-01-24T08:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/1 "2007-01-24T08:58:57Z")
[There is no war on terror](http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1997247,00.html) At last - a UK political figure who talks some sense IMHO. > [@](#): > > The director of public prosecutions, Sir Ken Macdonald, put himself at odds with the home secretary and Downing Street last night by denying that Britain is caught up in a “war on terror” and calling for a “culture of legislative restraint” in passing laws to deal with terrorism. > > Sir Ken warned of the pernicious risk that a “fear-driven and inappropriate” response to the threat could lead Britain to abandon respect for fair trials and the due process of law. > [@](#): > > “It is critical that we understand that this new form of terrorism carries another more subtle, perhaps equally pernicious, risk. Because it might encourage a fear-driven and inappropriate response. By that I mean it can tempt us to abandon our values. I think it important to understand that this is one of its primary purposes.” > > He said: "London is not a battlefield. Those innocents who were murdered on July 7 2005 were not victims of war. And the men who killed them were not, as in their vanity they claimed on their ludicrous videos, ‘soldiers’. They were deluded, narcissistic inadequates. They were criminals. They were fantasists. We need to be very clear about this. On the streets of London, there is no such thing as a ‘war on terror’, just as there can be no such thing as a ‘war on drugs’. > > “The fight against terrorism on the streets of Britain is not a war. It is the prevention of crime, the enforcement of our laws and the winning of justice for those damaged by their infringement.” Well, I can’t argue with that but I’m sure others can. Something has to stop us playing into the hands of our enemies by becoming monsters ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/2 "2007-01-24T09:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Something has to stop us playing into the hands of our enemies by becoming monsters ourselves. [/QUOTE] That’s what I never understood about the US and how it handled Sept 11. The terrorists crashed planes into the buildings to make a statement and damage the US. Everytime Bush and his clan open their mouths they gabber it like a bunch of parrots. 911, 911, 911 (squaaaak) 911. This brings attention to the fact the terrorists made a rather large statement and damaged the USA. If the President makes changes to the law which effects US citizens, this drives the point home. As long as the US keeps parroting 911, 911, 911, the terrorists are getting just what they want and winning. I’d say, for the terrorists, Sept 11th worked far better than they ever expected. I’d say not only was it one of the largest terrorist attacks, it was the single most successful attack. Bush played right into their hands. Bush also proved terrorist attacks on the US can be very effective. More effective. Zero tolerance on terror. Go after the people behind Sept 11th and do not quit or waver until they are found and killed or put on trial. If the US went after the terrorists like a pissed off pitbull after a rabbit, the statement made by the terrorists would be moot. The US would have said “That’s how you want to play huh? Fine. We’re coming for you and you better pray you die before we find you. We will not stop until we find you and rip you limb from limb”. Don’t drag other countries into it. Don’t use it as an excuse to do something else. Don’t make promises you don’t intend to keep (IE: “Dead or alive well get him”) Focus on the terrorists and get them. Instead of the US being an angry pitbull, they got a sobby little school girl. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/3 "2007-01-24T10:54:06Z")
I don’t want anger. I want determination and resolve not to let terrorists win by undermining the values and institutions we allegedly hold dear. Anger leads to bad decision-making. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/4 "2007-01-24T11:54:09Z")
Nooooo, I won’t have that. You are completely off the mark to say “At last - a UK political figure who talks some sense IMHO.” The former Foreign Secretary and leader of the house of commons, [Robin Cook](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook) RIP, resigned over the war and after much debate, back in 2003. There have been many others as well. Other than that, the thoughts you are reflecting here by the British DPP are patently obvious. OK I tried to argue … sorry, thats all I could come up with. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/5 "2007-01-24T11:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=antechinus] Nooooo, I won’t have that. You are completely off the mark to say “At last - a UK political figure who talks some sense IMHO.” The former Foreign Secretary and leader of the house of commons, [Robin Cook](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook) RIP, resigned over the war and after much debate, back in 2003. There have been many others as well. Other than that, the thoughts you are reflecting here by the British DPP are patently obvious. OK I tried to argue … sorry, thats all I could come up with. [/QUOTE] Cook and the others resigned over the Iraq War and the handling of Parliament and manipulation of intelligence rather than the whole ‘War on Terror’ Orwell-speak if I recall but I take your point. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/6 "2007-01-24T12:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Cook and the others resigned over the Iraq War and the handling of Parliament and manipulation of intelligence rather than the whole ‘War on Terror’ Orwell-speak if I recall but I take your point. [/QUOTE] Damn fine resignation speech he made too: ‘Our difficulty in getting support this time is that neither the international community nor the British public is persuaded that there is an urgent and compelling reason for this military action in Iraq.’ ‘Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create?’ ‘I welcome the strong personal commitment that the prime minister has given to middle east peace, but Britain’s positive role in the middle east does not redress the strong sense of injustice throughout the Muslim world at what it sees as one rule for the allies of the US and another rule for the rest. Nor is our credibility helped by the appearance that our partners in Washington are less interested in disarmament than they are in regime change in Iraq.’ > **[BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Cook's resignation speech](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2859431.stm)** > > The full text of Robin Cook's resignation speech to the House of Commons. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/7 "2007-01-24T15:32:03Z")
To quote Richard Huffman from [The Gun Speaks: The Baader-Meinhof Gang at the Dawn of Terror](http://www.baader-meinhof.com/gun/chapter/index.htm) > [@](#): > > The Baader-Meinhof Gang certainly didn’t expect to win their war by themselves. They assumed an epic proletarian backlash would be the Revolution’s true engine. They assumed their wave of terror would force the state to respond with brutal, reflexive anger. They assumed that West German civil liberties and civil rights would be quashed as the state turned the clock back 25 years to the Nazi era of open fascism. They assumed that the proletarian West Germans would react in horror as the true nature of their own government was revealed. They assumed that factory workers, bakers, and miners, would be inspired to smash their own oppressors. They assumed that they would be the vanguard of a movement where millions of Germans brought Revolution home. One of the aims of terrorism is to engender the kind of oppressive backlash that seems to be happening with the erosion of civil liberties. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/8 "2007-01-24T17:47:12Z")
Excellent stuff. I think this is my favorite section of the speech: > [@](#): > > “We wouldn’t get far in promoting a civilising culture of respect for rights amongst and between citizens if we set about undermining fair trials in the simple pursuit of greater numbers of inevitably less safe convictions. On the contrary, it is obvious that the process of winning convictions ought to be in keeping with a consensual rule of law and not detached from it. Otherwise we sacrifice fundamental values critical to the maintenance of the rule of law - upon which everything else depends.” Memo to Bush, Gonzalez, et al.: Read and digest. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/9 "2007-01-24T23:58:06Z")
[QUOTE=rayh] To quote Richard Huffman from [The Gun Speaks: The Baader-Meinhof Gang at the Dawn of Terror](http://www.baader-meinhof.com/gun/chapter/index.htm) One of the aims of terrorism is to engender the kind of oppressive backlash that seems to be happening with the erosion of civil liberties. [/QUOTE] Richard Huffman’s speculative touchy feely ruminations about the aims of terrorism hardly rate as authoritative. I can’t recall any of the numerous psychopaths who speak on behalf of modern terrorist groups claim that they want an oppressive backlash to hit back at them. More usually they clearly identify and describe the objectives of their movement and justify the murders they commit on the grounds that it will help their movement advance towards its final objective. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/10 "2007-01-25T21:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] Richard Huffman’s speculative touchy feely ruminations about the aims of terrorism hardly rate as authoritative. I can’t recall any of the numerous psychopaths who speak on behalf of modern terrorist groups claim that they want an oppressive backlash to hit back at them. More usually they clearly identify and describe the objectives of their movement and justify the murders they commit on the grounds that it will help their movement advance towards its final objective. [/QUOTE] IIRC, their “final objective” includes a general war between the Islamic world and the Western world – which they think they can win, because Allah is on their side. Everything we do in Iraq and elsewhere to stir up even more resentment and bitterness brings us one step closer to obliging them. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/11 "2007-01-25T22:50:06Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] IIRC, their “final objective” includes a general war between the Islamic world and the Western world – which they think they can win, because Allah is on their side. Everything we do in Iraq and elsewhere to stir up even more resentment and bitterness brings us one step closer to obliging them. [/QUOTE] If the first part of your statement is true then the terrorists, their enablers and their supporters, consider both of us to be legitimate targets in a war zone merely by virtue of the fact that we exist. The mess in Iraq would probably not add or detract anything to that situation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/12 "2007-01-26T00:34:20Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If the first part of your statement is true then the terrorists, their enablers and their supporters, consider both of us to be legitimate targets in a war zone merely by virtue of the fact that we exist. The mess in Iraq would probably not add or detract anything to that situation. [/QUOTE] Except that it builds up their numbers. Every Coalition soldier in Iraq is an al-Qaeda recruiter. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/13 "2007-01-26T00:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Aquila Be] If the first part of your statement is true then the terrorists, their enablers and their supporters, consider both of us to be legitimate targets in a war zone merely by virtue of the fact that we exist. The mess in Iraq would probably not add or detract anything to that situation. [/QUOTE] The object therefore must be to minimise the number of terrorists, enablers and supporters. There is every reason to think that the Iraq mess will have the opposite effect. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/14 "2007-01-26T03:10:32Z")
One of the criticisms of Kerry I heard in 2004, from one of the right-wing talking heads, was to the effect that “He’d treat terrorists like a law enforcement problem.” Sounds good to me. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/15 "2007-01-26T03:40:43Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] One of the criticisms of Kerry I heard in 2004, from one of the right-wing talking heads, was to the effect that “He’d treat terrorists like a law enforcement problem.” Sounds good to me. [/QUOTE] That’s fine, as far as it goes, but there are some problems with it, among which, most terrorists are in places you can’t serve warrants on. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/16 "2007-01-26T04:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] most terrorists are in places you can’t serve warrants on. [/QUOTE] Some are in places [such as Italy](http://mwcnews.net/content/view/11693&Itemid=1), where warrants _could_ be used. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/17 "2007-01-26T04:40:56Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] That’s fine, as far as it goes, but there are some problems with it, among which, most terrorists are in places you can’t serve warrants on. [/QUOTE] But **none** of them, since late 2001, are in places that are legitimate military targets. They’re a network of underground cells. Using an army to fight them is like using a machine gun to rid a house of termites. ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/18 "2007-01-26T09:47:57Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Except that it builds up their numbers. Every Coalition soldier in Iraq is an al-Qaeda recruiter. [/QUOTE] The Iraq situation makes no difference. Neither, for that matter, does the existence or otherwise of Israel. Without Iraq there would be the same low intensity (for the present) warfare being waged in various parts of Europe, America, Southern Thailand, Indonesia, Southern Phillipines, India (particularly Kashmir), and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/19 "2007-01-26T09:50:42Z")
Well gee, if you say so. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218/20 "2007-01-26T11:43:36Z")
[QUOTE=Princhester] Well gee, if you say so. [/QUOTE] Don’t be so harsh. At least not without checking the colour of the sky on Aq’s world. I’m guessing green. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-no-war-on-terror-says-uk-dpp/389218.md?page=2)