# There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it's KILLING US... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249 "2000-12-12T22:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/1 "2000-12-12T22:18:30Z")
Don’t get me wrong–I have found many people here to be intelligent, articulate and earnest about the things that matter to them. But the level of cynicism here about politics is (however understandable) totally out of control. People write threads in which is a sincere candidate like Nader, with a long record of public service, is likened to career politicians with no credibility. Everyone applauds. (Whether you agree with Nader or not, at least give the guy credit for having ideals and not selling them out). People complain that their taxes are too high–that they don’t want to pay for room and board in jails–but they stop right there. They seem not to know or to care that the US has become prison capital of the world. (We have 5% of the world’s population and 25% of its prisoners; almost 90% of them are in jail for non-violent, usually drug-related, offenses. About half are non-white) This isn’t _just_ a taxpayer problem. It’s a national disgrace. People are understandably pissed off that their jobs aren’t secure; that they have to work their asses off to support themselves. But they don’t seem to connect this to the incredible rise of inequality in this country–over the last few decades the middle class has shrunk so that the US now has the same rich/vs.poor ratio as a third world country. People are understandably turned off by the polarized attitudes of Bush vs. Gore–but their response is to want to pretend that it’s all subjective anyway. Or they’re pleased that the government will be deadlocked b/c they’ve decided that the best kind of government is one too divided to do anything. But what about the fact that there are things that almost all of us agree need doing?! People are fed up with the way that the election has been reduced to trivialities like Gore’s exaggerations or Bush’s malaproprisms–but they’re willing to accept that the monopolistic media that profits from propagating such trash is an unchangeable reality or, worse still, an expression of the free market. Please don’t tell me that I should check out the Great Debates. I have looked there and there’s obviously some more rigorous discussion going on there but that’s not my point. **My point is that here is where people come to vent, and the dominant political venting attitude that I’ve observed is a disaffected cynicism that is itself part of the problem.** I have only been here for a month or so, so maybe my impression is a wrong one. If it is, I’m sure to hear about it. My intent isn’t to offend or insult anyone. But if I’m even just a little bit right then I think that this is a telling symptom of a democracy in decline. All of you here are prosperous enough to have a computer and educated enough to choose to post on a venue like this one. And you’re angry enough to want to be in a Pit–at least part of the time. Maybe I’m insane, but I think that people like you can do a lot to improve the world that you (sometimes) despair of. To work for the majority of people, a democracy can’t be just a place where people vote once a year (and already more than 1/2 of the US population doesn’t even bother to do that). To live in a genuine democracy is to feel that you have the power to make an impact when you feel that something is wrong. There are things wrong with this country that people on both the left and the right agree on–and that can be a starting point. My point isn’t that you shouldn’t be wasting your time ranting and flaming: my point is that the same energy that you put into your rants and flames can (at least some of the time) empower you. There is no greater gift to whomever you think is taking advantage of you (whether it’s hypocritical politicians, or multi-national corporations, apathetic bureaucrats or shitty employers) than your own cynicism. And that’s true whether you vote or not. If you’ve made it this far, thanks for reading. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/2 "2000-12-12T22:30:51Z")
**CYNICISM.** An effective social mechanism for preventing communication. Cynicism is found in people who see themselves principally as members of a class or ideological group and not as individuals. It indicates a lack of self-confidence. Through an appearance of world-weariness it attempts to sugget the possession of real knowledge. The cynic knows and can’t be bothered to tell those who are ignorant. Since no real discussion is possible, the cynic’s group-attitudes cannot be questioned. Cynicism is thus an aggressively superior attitude which aborts debate in order to disguise inferiority. As a result, the eighteenth-century idea that wrongdoing was caused by ignorance has been reversed. Instead, the possession of expert knowledge is regularly used to argue that only the naive don’t understand why it is necessary and even good to do wrong. This approach has been particularly popular in the neo-conservative movement as a way of justifying economic policies which produce suffering. -John Ralston Saul, _The Doubter’s Companion_ ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/3 "2000-12-12T22:53:11Z")
Matt: Thanks for this incredibly interesting definition of cynicism. I just want to add that I meant it in a much more general way and in a way that is more unconscious. More like disaffected, skeptical about the possibility of realizing democratic ideals, even burn-out. But thanks again. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/4 "2000-12-12T23:08:20Z")
So… I think you’re saying I can’t be cynical? Why not? Boil it down for us… what’s the point? TV guide version. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/5 "2000-12-12T23:25:41Z")
It’s possible you’re looking at skewed results. Maybe only the world’s cynics post here and complain about things. Maybe all the Pollyannas have more important things to do, like hang chandelier bobs all over the dining room. **Matt** , you passed up a perfectly good opportunity to flex your pecs and show off the official MattMcl Translation! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/6 "2000-12-12T23:29:43Z")
Mr. Cynical is so gonna kick your ass… ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/7 "2000-12-12T23:42:06Z")
Damn it, **Magdalene**! I was gonna post that! ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/8 "2000-12-13T00:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it’s KILLING US… Oh, I don’t know that I believe that. Besides, it’s not like we can do anything about it. And even if we did, nothing would change. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/9 "2000-12-13T00:35:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **Matt** , you passed up a perfectly good opportunity to flex your pecs and show off the official MattMcl Translation! :eek: > \*\* **CINIKISMO** Efikiva socia mekanismo por eviti komunikadon. Cinikismo trovighas en homoj kiuj vidas sin chefe kiel anoj de iu klaso au ideologia grupo kaj ne kiel individuoj. Ghi indikas mankon je memkonfidenteco. Per shajno de mondenuo ghi provas sugesti la posedon de interna scio. La ciniko scias kaj ne faros al si la ghenon de diri ghin al la stultuloj. Char neniu vera diskutado eblas, la grupsentoj de la ciniko ne estas pridemandeblaj. Cinikismo estas do agreseme klasafekta sinteno kiu abortigas debaton por maskvesti subecon. Kiel rezulto, la dekok-jarcenta ideo ke nescio kauzas malbonfaron estas inversita. Anstataue, la posedon de eksperta scio estas refoje uzata por argumenti ke nur la naivaj ne komprenas kial estas necesa kaj ech bona fari malbonon. Chi tiu metodo estas aparte populara en la **novkonservativa** movado kiel maniero por justigi ekonomiajn politikojn kiuj produktas suferadon. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/10 "2000-12-13T00:35:40Z")
that’s the 4th time today someone on this board has cracked me up. Mandel: Yes! yes! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/11 "2000-12-13T00:50:38Z")
At the risk of seeming, uh, _cynical_, I think that everyone _should_ applaud when People write threads in which is a stiff-necked jerk with a messianic complex like Nader, with a long record of getting called himself to testify falsely before congress on issues of which he is ignorant, is likened to career politicians with no credibility. That said, _of course_ the people who post bile and calumny in the **Pit** are going to appear cynical (or, at least, misanthropic). The correct way to judge whether a person is cynical, however, is not to look at their most angered rantings, but at what they actually do in their lives. I suspect that a good many posters who come here to vent their spleen, leave this Forum and write earnest letters to their representatives, actively work for candidates who embody platforms with which they can agree, and actually take the (miniscule) time to vote. If I am going to be upset by political postings on this MB, it will be regarding those purely partisan screaming matches in **GD** in which neither side recognizes that _their_ candidate has not been canonized (and is not worthy of it) and that their opponent’s candidate has not been damned for eternity (and _probably_ does not deserve that, either). The rants, here, are at least in the proper Forum. The sniper-fests in **GD** make me wonder how many of those folks are really interested in stamping out ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![beergeek279](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@beergeek279](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beergeek279)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/12 "2000-12-13T01:03:28Z")
With two not-so-really-polar idiots placed in front of them, no wonder people are so fucking cynical!! With fucking vultures waiting to pounce on them from both sides of the political spectrum, no damn wonder they’re cynical! > [@](#): > > People complain that their taxes are too high–that they don’t want to pay for room and board in jails–but they stop right there. They seem not to know or to care that the US has become prison capital of the world. (We have 5% of the world’s population and 25% of its prisoners; almost 90% of them are in jail for non-violent, usually drug-related, offenses. About half are non-white) This isn’t _just_ a taxpayer problem. It’s a national disgrace. But did either one of these candidates make even the least effort to stop the inane War on Drugs?? Hell no! They want more of your money to keep this fascistic bullshit up for another 4 years!!! > [@](#): > > People are understandably pissed off that their jobs aren’t secure; that they have to work their asses off to support themselves. But they don’t seem to connect this to the incredible rise of inequality in this country–over the last few decades the middle class has shrunk so that the US now has the same rich/vs.poor ratio as a third world country. No…generally don’t tend to connect it to “inequality”, especially not in a time where there’s 5% unemployment, which is about as practically low as it’s going to get…I’m sick and fucking tired of hearing about that horseshit! [QUOTE] People are understandably turned off by the polarized attitudes of Bush vs. Gore–but their response is to want to pretend that it’s all subjective anyway. Or they’re pleased that the government will be deadlocked b/c they’ve decided that the best kind of government is one too divided to do anything. But what about the fact that there are things that almost all of us agree need doing?! You bet your ass I’m pleased that the government will be deadlocked! I agree that there are things that need doing by the government…like shrinking out of our lives and doing their stated job…to protect our freedoms. But seeing as that’s not going to happen…getting those goddamn bastards out of the way means they can’t do any more harm to this country! > [@](#): > > People are fed up with the way that the election has been reduced to trivialities like Gore’s exaggerations or Bush’s malaproprisms–but they’re willing to accept that the monopolistic media that profits from propagating such trash is an unchangeable reality or, worse still, an expression of the free market. If you don’t like it, change the fucking channel! > [@](#): > > My point is that here is where people come to vent, and the dominant political venting attitude that I’ve observed is a disaffected cynicism that is itself part of the problem. No…the system that presents two utter fucking jackasses and expects us to choose between them is the problem…hell, with a choice between arsenic and cyanide, I can’t blame people for being cynical! > [@](#): > > But if I’m even just a little bit right then I think that this is a telling symptom of a democracy in decline This country has been in decline ever since it went from the United States of America as the Founding Fathers forsaw to becoming the People’s Republic of America that it is now!!! > [@](#): > > My point isn’t that you shouldn’t be wasting your time ranting and flaming: my point is that the same energy that you put into your rants and flames can (at least some of the time) empower you. > > There is no greater gift to whomever you think is taking advantage of you (whether it’s hypocritical politicians, or multi-national corporations, apathetic bureaucrats or shitty employers) than your own cynicism. And that’s true whether you vote or not. Nope…the best gift those hypocritical politicians and apathetic bureaucrats can give me is my cynicism…it gives me the drive to come back and bite them in the ass someday!!! > [@](#): > > If you’ve made it this far, thanks for reading. You are quite welcome. Thank you for the Pit thread…gives me a chance to say how I really feel without watching my fucking mouth! ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/13 "2000-12-13T01:32:40Z")
> [@](#): > > There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it’s KILLING US… :rolleyes: Oh, like THAT’S a heartfelt and original thing to post. I mean, come on, you _know_ that – _gak! ::cough cough:: argh!_ \*:: THUMP! :: \* ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/14 "2000-12-13T02:59:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > **I suspect that a good many posters who come here to vent their spleen, leave this Forum and write earnest letters to their representatives, actively work for candidates who embody platforms with which they can agree, and actually take the (miniscule) time to vote.** Thanks for pointing that out, Tom. I fit that description, as is evidenced in my shameless hijacking in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=964428#post964428). 😃 Oh, and **Magdalene** and **Tymp** , fuck you both, cuz **I** was gonna say that! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/15 "2000-12-13T05:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magdalene \* > \*\*Mr. Cynical is so gonna kick your ass… \*\* No, according to the OP, I’m going to kill you all. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/16 "2000-12-13T06:12:36Z")
“The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who lack it.” I forget if that’s exactly right or who said it (I’m pretty sure it was a guy with 3 names) but it used to be in my friend’s AOL profile and I liked it. ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/17 "2000-12-13T06:37:27Z")
Cynic: a miscreant who persists in seeing things as they are, not as they should be. _-Ambrose Bierce_ ---
**Author:** ![Caliban](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@Caliban](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caliban)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/18 "2000-12-13T06:51:32Z")
Allow me to pat you on the back, **Mandelstam**! There’s healthy cynicism and then there’s _paranoid_ cynicism. We see corporations and politicians screw us over for the highest bidder on a regular basis, so it’s tempting to assume that all human beings are similarly motivated by self-interest and greed. Simply not true. There are good people in the world, never lose sight of that fact. Cynicism can also be a fine excuse to abandon one’s ideals. If everybody else is motivated by self-interest and greed, then it makes no difference if _I_ sell out too, right? Bullshit! ---
**Author:** ![NothingMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b77776/32.png) [@NothingMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NothingMan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/19 "2000-12-13T06:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally quoted by Mandelstam_ > **There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it’s KILLING US…** There IS TOO MUCH CAPS HERE. And I WILL be CYNICAL if I WANT ! jackass ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/20 "2000-12-13T07:23:07Z")
> [@](#): > > “The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who lack it.” I forget if that’s exactly right or who said it (I’m pretty sure it was a guy with 3 names Heh. That’s the line that was running through my head the second I saw this thread. If memory serves me correctly, it was George Bernard Shaw and the exact quote is : “The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who have not got it.” Personally, I’m a cynic when it comes to politics and big business. In fact, anyone who desires power simply for the sake of having power (read: every politician and CEO in the world) is never going to completely gain my trust. However, I’m not cynical when it comes to the average joe. The vast, vast, _vast_ majority of people are truly good at heart. Anne Frank hit the nail on the head. Of that, I’m convinced. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249.md?page=2)