# There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it's KILLING US... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 12, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249 "2000-12-12T22:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tiggeril](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tiggeril/32/7234_2.png) [@tiggeril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiggeril)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/21 "2000-12-13T18:11:29Z")
Too much cynicism kills? Odd… I felt a lot _better_ after the cynicism set in. It was the foolish optimism that was wearing me down. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/22 "2000-12-13T18:15:52Z")
Ok, we’ve identified two forms of “cynicism” here. I’d tend to call the good kind not cynicism, but doubt. Doubt is what tells us that nobody is necessarily good or bad. Cynicism is what tells us that everyone (or at least, everyone in a particular domain) is bad. Speaking as a good politician (I hope), the second is what I have to fight against. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/23 "2000-12-13T18:18:44Z")
Or here’s another thought: Cynicism is as stupid as naive optimism because naive optimism says that everything is good and cynicism says that everything is bad. Neither attitude is useful. What is useful is to doubt everything and reserve our judgment. That will probably lead, in the end, to discovering as many good things as bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/24 "2000-12-13T19:45:14Z")
**Matt** : Thanks for those last two posts in which you said much of what I would have wanted to say, but much more concisely than I ever would have said them! **Saint Zero** : see Matt’s posts for your “TV guide” version of what I was trying to say in my OP. **DDG** : I know you were joking but, just for the record, I don’t look for a world of Pollyannas (naive optimists). I look for a world of idealists who are just pragmatic enough to not want to retreat entirely into the pursuit of personal happiness. Clarification: I was asking people to believe in democracy, _not_ in particular political candidates. In our society we’re led to believe that we are free b/c we can vote once a year. This exceedingly narrow view of democracy is bolstered by the constant call to choose between Coke and Pepsi (or radically, Fruitopia!); The Limited or Express (or radically, Hot Topic!); “Friends” or “Sex in the City” (or radically, “The Men’s Show”). I could go on, but I hope you see my point. We are treated like consumers, not like citizens. And it’s in the same spirit and through the same mechanisms that Bush and Gore were offered to us–as pre-conceived, marketing-tested products. The problem with this is that, as consumers, we’re not offered any input beyond “Choose A or B” or “none of the above.” And the truth is that the people who benefit most from the status quo (the individuals who are _already_ as wealthy as some nations but are still getting wealthier, and the the corporations that get more powerful everyday) are only too happy if (as we increasingly do) we go for “none of the above.” The more cycnical we are about politics, the better for them. **RugbyMan** : I wasn’t suggesting that people shouldn’t be cynical about Bush vs. Gore. I was suggesting that you can be mighty skeptical and even depressed about particular candidates but still not abandon the goals of democracy. Maybe it’s true, as **tom** said that many people here write letters and do other citizen’s stuff in their actual lives. If so, great. But, the irony Rugby, is that you are a perfect example of how people get sucked in by the fake truths of the status quo and, as a result, reduce their ability to make an impact on democracy. From your post it’s clear that you have libertarian sentiments, that you disagree with the “fascistic” War on Drugs. Awesome. **But your view on this issue is not getting any play on the major airwaves, dude**. You’re like that cool band that cut the best indy record of 1997 but got drowned out in a wave of Spice Girls and Britney Spears. Here is your opinion on the subject of the fact that almost 100% of what we read in the papers, hear on the radio, see in the movies, and watch on cable or regular TV is owned by the same 7 companies (with even more mergers afoot and more of this kind of concentration involving the Internet). **RM: "If you don’t like it, change the fucking channel!"** Excuse me, but that is like _SO_ self-defeating. Turn on your TV during election time and check out _all_ of those channels. Where is the program that treats of your concern with what you rightly call “fascistic” imprisonment of non-violent drug offenders? (If you answer “Geraldo” I’ll smack you silly.) Where were the other candidates in the presidential debates when–get this–more than 60% of the American people said they _wanted_ to see these other candidates take part? Why do the major networks provide only the most superficial coverage of candidates any more (“And in today’s news, Bush mispronounces the words, ‘ecological disaster’”). The reason is that they want to force candidates to pay _them_ millions of dollars to air TV commercials on _our_ airwaves. Which also means that candidates who run for office must raise those millions of dollars from–guess who?–the richest individuals and corporations. Well isn’t that a pretty vicious circle? So maybe, RugbyMan, you’re exactly the kinda guy that ought to think some more about media reform b/c up until that time you’re pretty much doomed to “choose” between President Coke and President Pepsi. (If you are interested in this issue I can post some links.) ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/25 "2000-12-13T20:11:15Z")
**Manny** , you are a god. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/26 "2000-12-13T21:28:25Z")
I’d like to associate myself with Nen’s remarks. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/27 "2000-12-13T21:43:01Z")
CYNIC, _n._ - A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision. –Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil’s Dictionary_ ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/28 "2000-12-13T21:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > There is TOO MUCH CYNICISM HERE and it’s KILLING US… Obviously, you had some ulterior motive in starting this thread. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/29 "2000-12-14T18:27:03Z")
**Caliban, Nen, Matt** –you give me more credit than I deserve. The things I’ve said in this thread are based on stuff I’ve read over the last five or so years. Once your eyes are open, there’s no shortage of further, urrm, inspiration. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBeer \* > \*\*CYNIC, _n._ - A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic’s eyes to improve his vision. > –Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil’s Dictionary_ > \*\* **Uncle Beer, Nebuli, Neutron** –i.e. those of you who cited Bierce and G.B. Shaw. At the risk of saying something that you already know very well,… _\_ …I want to point out that these guys were famous satirists who were trying to overturn the conventional morality of their time. That would have been a posture of lily-white moral earnestness bordering on total hypocrisy; very unlike our own times when, one might argue, detached cynicism (a la Beavis and Butthead) IS the conventional morality. Bierce and Shaw were also writing ironically. They were no more straightforwardly commending cynicism than Oscar Wilde was celebrating the end of human relationships when he wrote, “Friendship is more tragic than love. It lasts longer.” Shaw, in particular, was very politically active. His humor seems to me to epitomize the difference between 1)skeptical and satirical irreverence towards the conventional morality (yes! yes!) and 2) inert depoliticized cynicism, pure and simple (no! no!). _\_ But, anyway, I do appreciate the introduction of some first-class witticists and, again, sorry if you were already well aware of where these guys were coming from. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/30 "2000-12-14T18:57:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > **CYNICISM. An effective …** That’s great, kid. Gotta find that book. I’m something of a cynical Pollyanna. I hope for the best but expect the worse. And the difference between the two attitudes is smaller than might seem. Often, a cynic is a Pollyanna who was burnt once too often. But, since long-term memory is not my strong suit, I eventually slip back into Pollyanna mode. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/31 "2000-12-14T19:05:49Z")
Dropzone: Fabulous! You’ll love it. Try also his _Voltaire’s Bastards_ and _The Unconscious Civilization_. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/32 "2000-12-14T20:18:44Z")
So would you visit a site devoted to William Shatner and wonder why there are so many Trekkies? ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/33 "2000-12-14T20:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*So would you visit a site devoted to William Shatner and wonder why there are so many Trekkies? > > \*\* **PunditLisa** , assuming you are at all serious here, you seem to be suggesting that the SDMB is devoted to cynicism. From everything I’ve seen that is entirely untrue: I’ve read moderators and members alike saying that they (uncyncially) believe that the board is devoted to the (very uncynical) task of reducing ignorance. If you’re specifically referring to the Pit, I’ve already said that, in my view, a place where people go when they’re angry (about politics or any other subject) doesn’t _have_ to be a place where they entirely abandon their belief in democratic goals. When people are fed up with the political status quo, they _could_ get angry in a way that makes them _more_ political rather than more cynical. As I see it, this is site for people who want to be well-informed and, (it follows), believe in some way that knowledge is empowering. Insofar as people here are driven to cynicism instead of citizenship, I would liken it to a Trekkie website where Captain Kirk lovers were dissing Spock-wannabes for not being Alpha males; or where the Federation was lambasted as a tax-and-spend bureaucracy for cry-baby liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249/34 "2000-12-14T21:29:49Z")
For a while I was worried that I was becoming too cynical, so I made a conscious effort to relapse into abject apathy. I might be bothered about it if I cared. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > … Gotta find that book. Have any problem locating it, you can borrow my copy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-is-too-much-cynicism-here-and-its-killing-us/45249.md?page=1)