# There was a 1940's or 1950' version of Koch Brothers??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209 "2015-03-04T17:12:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/1 "2015-03-04T17:12:23Z")
I was once told during a conversation on world events that there was a pair of brothers or business partners very similar to the Koch bothers. I don’t remember if it was in WWII, before, or after but basically they worked behind the scenes with funding and particularly propaganda, basically forming the model that is being used today. Has anyone heard of this? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/2 "2015-03-04T17:15:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I was once told during a conversation on world events that there was a pair of brothers or business partners very similar to the Koch bothers. I don’t remember if it was in WWII, before, or after but basically they worked behind the scenes with funding and particularly propaganda, basically forming the model that is being used today. Has anyone heard of this? I haven’t, and I have read Rick Perlstein’s [_Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus_](http://www.amazon.com/Before-Storm-Goldwater-Unmaking-Consensus/dp/1568584121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425489255&sr=8-1&keywords=before+the+storm), which very thoroughly covers and analyzes movement conservatism during the 1950s and 1960s. But not the 1940s. Perhaps the brothers you are thinking of were part of or supporters of the [America First Committee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/3 "2015-03-04T17:31:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I haven’t, and I have read Rick Perlstein’s [_Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus_](http://www.amazon.com/Before-Storm-Goldwater-Unmaking-Consensus/dp/1568584121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425489255&sr=8-1&keywords=before+the+storm), which very thoroughly covers and analyzes movement conservatism during the 1950s and 1960s. But not the 1940s. Perhaps the brothers you are thinking of were part of or supporters of the [America First Committee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee). no, they were defiently pro-war, they were military industrialists ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/4 "2015-03-04T18:04:34Z")
Its a beautiful racket! Wrapped up in patriotic bunting! Its not about war, its only about being ready for war, making sure the other guy doesn’t dare! OK, the Japanese attacked anyway, even having no real chance, but that doesn’t count, because they were disoriented! So, you got to buy the Veeblefetzer 9000 Weapons System, gotta stay ahead of the Soviets, or the Ayatollah, or whomever this week. Spend whatever it takes its national security! And then that will be obsolete, so we got to buy the Veeblefetzer 9000 Weapons System V 2.0. Stuck with the old model? No problem, just sell that old shit to the up and coming second or third world. They can’t afford it? Not to worry, the Gummint will loan them the money. Give them. Whatever. Long as they hate Commies, or Ayatollahs, or whomever… And oh! how the money rolls in, rolls in… ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/5 "2015-03-04T18:11:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Its a beautiful racket! Wrapped up in patriotic bunting! Its not about war, its only about being ready for war, making sure the other guy doesn’t dare! OK, the Japanese attacked anyway, even having no real chance, but that doesn’t count, because they were disoriented! > > So, you got to buy the Veeblefetzer 9000 Weapons System, gotta stay ahead of the Soviets, or the Ayatollah, or whomever this week. Spend whatever it takes its national security! And then that will be obsolete, so we got to buy the Veeblefetzer 9000 Weapons System V 2.0. Stuck with the old model? No problem, just sell that old shit to the up and coming second or third world. They can’t afford it? Not to worry, the Gummint will loan them the money. Give them. Whatever. Long as they hate Commies, or Ayatollahs, or whomever… > > And oh! how the money rolls in, rolls in… yes, of course, you are right but I am mainly talking about: Long as they hate Commies, or Ayatollahs, or whomever… the propaganda!! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/6 "2015-03-04T18:12:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I was once told during a conversation on world events that there was a pair of brothers or business partners very similar to the Koch bothers. Are you thinking of Joe Kennedy? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/7 "2015-03-04T18:15:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Are you thinking of Joe Kennedy? no, I can’t remember the names but it was not Joe Kennedy ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/8 "2015-03-04T18:36:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I was once told during a conversation on world events that there was a pair of brothers or business partners very similar to the Koch bothers. I don’t remember if it was in WWII, before, or after but basically they worked behind the scenes with funding and particularly propaganda, basically forming the model that is being used today. Has anyone heard of this? You might be thinking of Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt, the sons of H.L. Hunt. All three of them were active in funding conservative causes. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/9 "2015-03-04T18:51:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You might be thinking of Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt, the sons of H.L. Hunt. All three of them were active in funding conservative causes. ok i’ll read up on it,thanks ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/10 "2015-03-04T19:28:30Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Its a beautiful racket! Wrapped up in patriotic bunting! Its not about war, its only about being ready for war, making sure the other guy doesn’t dare! OK, the Japanese attacked anyway, even having no real chance, but that doesn’t count, because they were disoriented! [/QUOTE] Well, except we weren’t really prepared for war before WWII. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned military industrial complex rant! > [@](#): > > And oh! how the money rolls in, rolls in… As opposed to the good old fashioned way where we sent off our kids to fight and die with no training and crap equipment, right? That’s the way to do it! Worked so well for us during…well, during every freaking war we fought until we finally got this stupid idea out of our collective heads and decided that perhaps we should prepare for a change, since we invariably seem to get sucked into one war or another regardless of whether we were prepared or not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/11 "2015-03-04T20:00:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You might be thinking of Nelson Bunker Hunt and William Herbert Hunt, the sons of H.L. Hunt. All three of them were active in funding conservative causes. J.R. Ewing in _Dallas_ supposedly was based on [H.L. Hunt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Hunt). And, remember that Texan whom Yossarian meets in the hospital in _Catch-22?_ The one who says “people with means” should have more votes than people without means, etc.? I’ve heard he also was based on Hunt – though if “Curious Republic of Gondour” weighted voting was one of Hunt’s ideas, the Wiki page does not mention it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/12 "2015-03-04T20:11:14Z")
Mark Twain. And the idea was everybody got one vote, but if you wanted more, you had to get more education. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/13 "2015-03-04T20:14:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, except we weren’t really prepared for war before WWII. But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned military industrial complex rant!.. I appreciate your permission, and will comply. But you evade my point: being thoroughly prepared will definitely deter any rational enemy. Operative word being “rational”. > [@](#): > > …since we invariably seem to get sucked into one war or another regardless of whether we were prepared or not. Yeah, damndest thing about that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/14 "2015-03-04T20:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I appreciate your permission, and will comply. But you evade my point: being thoroughly prepared will definitely deter any rational enemy. Operative word being “rational”. [/QUOTE] As you evaded mine. YOU brought up Japan as an illustration of your point, and I pointed out that your illustration was flawed. Japan WAS acting rationally…the US was unprepared for war. The fact that we were willing to spend our children’s blood in buckets while once again relearning and retooling and producing the weapons of war we hadn’t BEFORE the conflict was a miscalculation on their part, but wasn’t irrational. Germany made the same calculation. > [@](#): > > Yeah, damndest thing about that. Yeah, it is. For the vast majority of US history we haven’t been prepared militarily, yet again and again we found ourselves in wars where our only option was to throw away our children’s lives in exchange for learning again and again the lessons we should have trained them in and have them use crappy, ill prepared and thought through weapons and equipment. This happened every single time the US went to war until fairly recently. It sickens me to look at the actual history and see this happening over and over again. I know you think you are making a point about the dread military industrial complex (a warning given by a Republican President, ironically enough), and I certainly think it’s a good cautionary tail (one that wags the dog), but given the alternative I think we are much better off with the US military of today than any in our history before. YMMV of course (I’m sure it does). At any rate, we seem to be straying from the OP, so I’ll bow out…I have no idea who were the equivalent of the Koch brothers in the pre-WWII military industrial complex. Whoever they were they weren’t doing a very good job of preparing us for the war we ended up getting embroiled in despite our isolationist attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/15 "2015-03-04T21:05:00Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Japan WAS acting rationally…the US was unprepared for war. No, Japan was not acting rationally. Japan was acting out of (perceived) desperation. I recall reading how Yamato told Tojo that in the event of war, “We can run wild for the first year, but I can guarantee nothing about the second or third year.” In fact, they spent the whole war making it up on the fly. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/16 "2015-03-04T21:34:40Z")
You’re not talking about the [Business Plot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot), are you? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/17 "2015-03-04T21:37:54Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > You’re not talking about the [Business Plot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot), are you? no, this was not that situation. it was more about the people who improved propaganda models than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/18 "2015-03-04T23:41:50Z")
Back then it wasn’t about buying ads on TV, it was about buying and running newspapers. But since newspapers are “the press” and the publishers actually own them, somehow that’s sacred. When someone just rents space in someone else’s media outlet (advertisement), that’s evil. The Koch’s should stop pussyfooting around and buy their own media outlet like, for instance, Murdoch has. Then they could broadcast all the political speech they want and anyone who whined about how they are using money to “buy” elections would suddenly go quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/19 "2015-03-05T00:02:27Z")
The Koch brothers had a father, who was up to his neck in the [John Birch Society.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209/20 "2015-03-05T06:33:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > …but basically they worked behind the scenes with funding and particularly propaganda… Funding for what? Propaganda for what cause? Certainly, any number of Rockefeller brothers might fit the description. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-1940s-or-1950-version-of-koch-brothers/714209.md?page=2)