# There Was a Film, a Very Strange Enchanted Film: MOULIN ROUGE thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 3, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801 "2008-11-03T01:59:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/21 "2008-11-03T23:09:10Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > He also didn’t do his own singing - he was the only one of the main cast who had a singing double, a singer named, I think, [Anthony Weigh](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0917852/). He did sing in _Spectacular Spectacular_ and wherever his calls and spoken words were a part of the song, like _Sparkling Diamonds_. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/22 "2008-11-04T00:13:54Z")
I loved it though I had the misfortune of seeing it in a smaller theater without a super sound system. Though, come to think of it, since then I’ve made a point of seeing musicals in the bigger theater and things were still a bit off. Maybe modern theater sound systems are calibrated for explosions and not music. I thought it was brilliant. Loved pretty much the entire soundtrack. Loved that they used modern songs, especially clever was Elephant Love Medley where they mixed them up. Roxanne was an amazing reworking. Toulouse-Lautrec neither bothered me nor delighted me. Despite the spoiler prologue, I was still surprised by the non happy ending. Would love to see this on stage. If they can’t get Ewan they could use the guy from Across the Universe that sings like him. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/23 "2008-11-04T03:45:15Z")
Seeing it in the theatre was a mind-blowing experience for me. I saw it twice and compiled the soundtrack off Napster back in the day (this was so I could dump the added tracks except Loundon Wainwright and Bono’s songs and add “Like a Virgin”). The only part I loathe is Ewan bleating “Your Song,” the lyrics throw me off every time. But everything else was brilliant. When I talk to people about the movie, I ask them to think of it as opera. Huge, overblown emotions, death at the end (that little bit in “Specactular, Spectacular” when the actors react to the duke saying “And in the end does someone die?” made me giggle with glee). And seeing the green fairy was my introduction to Kylie Minough. Rwof! ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/24 "2008-11-04T03:53:16Z")
To me, it’s a perfect movie. There’s not one single thing wrong with it, and I wouldn’t change a thing about it. The first time I saw it it automatically jumped into my Top 10. It would have been my favorite of the year it was released if Fellowship of the Ring, which also jumped into my Top 10 upon first viewing, hadn’t also been released that year. For the first time ever, I had two All-Time Favorite films, not only released in the same year, but actually get awards attention. I thought I was dreaming when both of them were nominated for Best Picture. Anyway, Moulin Rouge! occupies such a special place in my heart that I don’t even really want to read this thread. At least not until a few days after the election because I’m on such a magical high now, I don’t want to be brought down by criticism of the film. I forget exactly, but I think I saw it 8 or 9 times in the theater, and several times on video (High Definition is the way to go there). The most special time was the Friday after 9/11, when it was re-released into theaters here in Chicago. Such a horrible horrible week, and I desperately needed the movie. It was cathartic. I love this movie more than words could ever express. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/25 "2008-11-04T04:19:33Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I always think of The Duke from _Moulin Rouge!_ when I see your username! 😃 I’m not that evil! I’m not saying I wouldn’t try to shoot Ewan McGregor if he stole Nicole Kidman away from me, but I would never stomp on a little froggy during a date. > [@Liddle\_Lamsy\_Divey](#): > > I love it, but could never really understand why Christian loved Satine as much as he did (besides the fact that Nicole is gorgeous in the role). “Love at first sight” is an ancient dramatic convention that allows us to skip right to the juicy parts. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/26 "2008-11-04T04:40:34Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > I’m not that evil! I’m not saying I wouldn’t try to shoot Ewan McGregor if he stole Nicole Kidman away from me, but I would never stomp on a little froggy during a date. _It’s not that I’m not a jealous man. I just don’t like other people touching my things!_ ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/27 "2008-11-04T16:53:12Z")
Must admit, I enjoyed it too. Though, I saw it with a couple of gal pals… and halfway through, I commented to them that we probably should have dropped some acid beforehand, as parts of it might have been enhanced by some hallucinogens. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/28 "2008-11-04T17:42:12Z")
Did not like Moulin Rouge, and the moment I vividly remember deciding I did not like it was the moment when I realized I was hearing “Diamonds are a Girl’s Best Friend” (which I usually enjoy) and did not like the anachronism. R + J, on the other hand, was fine. Not great, but reasonably enjoyable. Age of the viewer might have had something to do with it-- I saw R + J with friends in college, and Moulin Rouge by myself more recently (obviously, not specially viewed for this thread). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/29 "2008-11-04T18:22:39Z")
I haven’t seen the movie, but I had to come in and say, “Damn you for getting that song stuck in my head every time I see this thread title! DAMN YOU!” (I assume it was in the film?) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/30 "2008-11-04T20:33:58Z")
I added this to the list of “nostalgia/time travel” films because I think of it as a movie I love – though I didn’t see it in the theater (don’t recall why not), I do own a copy and watch it once a year or so. This time, however, it didn’t pull me in the way it usually does. Why not? Well, > [@Pyper](#): > > I find the frenetic pace of the first act almost unbearable to watch. The pace of the music, the pace of the actors’ movements, and then the pace of the cutting and intercutting – **shudder** Not good. And it was enough to pull me out of the movie for the entire two hours. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as I usually do. I hope it was just a passing mood, because I (generally) like this movie and would hate to start hating it. Things I do like about this movie: Ewan McGregor. > [@WhyNot](#): > > That moment in the elephant, just after a very nervous Christian starts singing “Your Song”, and he realizes he’s still got it and Satine is hooked, and Ewan transitions from a nervous hopeful smile into his full glorious grin? Oh lord. Makes me swoony. This movie is the start of my deep, deep crush on him, and thanks to **WhyNot** , I can now pinpoint the exact moment at which this crush started. Oh Lord, indeed. Agree with what several of you have said about the anachronisms: > [@WhyNot](#): > > … the movie FEEL[s] like the Moulin Rouge did to the people that went there, instead of being a photographic image of it, and that was great. Baz says in the commentary something like, “if we had a tinny piano plunking out the Can Can , it might have been more _accurate_, but it wouldn’t have made the audience feel what it was like to be there.” Have never watched the commentary, maybe I should. Anyway, I agree that evoking, rather than recreating, the atmosphere of the Moulin Rouge was very successful. I’m not at all bothered by the use of the “wrong” songs – most of them are used very well, IMHO. I’m still thinking about: > [@lissener](#): > > [The theme of the film is] the universality of pop music. In such a rigorously pomo piece like this, the surface is everything; any human element that’s there exists only to support the surface conceit. What I was noticing on this viewing was that the only time the frenetic action (and editing) slowed down was for Christian and Satine’s duets – which often felt very real, very wonderful – very much about honest emotion, as opposed to the maelstrom of gaiety surrounding them. Finally: One more vote for the greatness of the “Roxanne” tango. That segment just gets better and more powerful every time I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/31 "2008-11-04T21:56:28Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Must admit, I enjoyed it too. > > Though, I saw it with a couple of gal pals… and halfway through, I commented to them that we probably should have dropped some acid beforehand, as parts of it might have been enhanced by some hallucinogens. Is green absinthe (of the sort used in the movie, not the lesser type sometimes sold in liquor stores) legal? My favorite thing about BL’s R&J over other productions I’ve seen was the fact that Romeo and Juliet saw each other as he was dying and she was coming to. I’ve never seen STRICTLY BALLROOM- how does it compare to MR! and R&J? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/32 "2008-11-04T22:16:11Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Is green absinthe (of the sort used in the movie, not the lesser type sometimes sold in liquor stores) legal? Yes, with some qualifications. There is much disagreement among absinthe aficionados as to what constitutes “real” absinthe, but it seems likely that those touting high levels of wormwood derivatives are no more authentic than those that don’t. [http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/absinthe/absinthe\_law.shtml](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/absinthe/absinthe_law.shtml) > [@WhyNot](#): > > the movie FEEL[s] like the Moulin Rouge did to the people that went there, instead of being a photographic image of it, and that was great. Baz says in the commentary something like, “if we had a tinny piano plunking out the Can Can , it might have been more accurate, but it wouldn’t have made the audience feel what it was like to be there.” I agree with the sentiment. It was supposed to be a dizzying experience. But one aspect where he wasn’t true to either the reality of the Moulin Rouge or its spirit was in the lack of crotchless bloomers on the cancan dancers. But, unfortunate as that may be, I think the reasons for that are obvious. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/33 "2008-11-04T22:38:20Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > My favorite thing about BL’s R&J over other productions I’ve seen was the fact that Romeo and Juliet saw each other as he was dying and she was coming to. I’ve never seen STRICTLY BALLROOM- how does it compare to MR! and R&J? I haven’t seen his R+J (and apparently I should), but _Strictly Ballroom_ is a lot of fun. Nowhere near as elaborate as MR!, of course. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/34 "2008-11-04T22:53:39Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > I haven’t seen his R+J (and apparently I should), but _Strictly Ballroom_ is a lot of fun. Nowhere near as elaborate as MR!, of course. Strictly Ballroom is brilliant, R+J is…misguided, and Mouline Rouge is held back by it’s source material. I think the idea and even the execution are brilliant, but that the foundation material is weak and the end result is a hollow product because of it. It’s the one of the same reasons why I dislike Rent. The story of La Boheme just is not an enduring classic tale that begs to be retold and reimagined. It’s a good story for an Opera, but the story was never the focus of the Opera. That being said, track down a copy of Baz’s staging of La Boheme which is also fantastic. I love Baz, I think he is one of the most amazingly creative and innovative directors to come down the pike in many years. I also think he hasn’t come anywhere close to reaching his potential when it comes to film. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/35 "2008-11-04T23:27:17Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > For me, the strongest theme in MR–a theme that thrilled me and I think the film is worthwhile just for making this point so brilliantly–is about the universality of pop music. In such a rigorously pomo piece like this, the surface is everything; any human element that’s there exists only to support the surface conceit. Hmm…I didn’t take that away as a theme at all. If it was one, it was a superficial one, and not the only one. I felt the use of pop music was there to, as Luhrmann claims, create the sense of instant smiling recognition of the brilliance of Christian’s writing. Again, somewhere in the commentary (and I realize I’m cheating by using the commentary, but please believe me that I grokked it while watching just the film, and the commentary just articulated it in prose), Baz mentions that Christian is, as Orpheus, the greatest songwriter ever. But Baz isn’t. So rather than write a dozen mediocre songs and try to pass them off as the best songs ever, Baz used songs which, while they may or may not be your personal cup of tea, are pretty widely recognized as some of the best songs of our generation’s growing-up years. I think if he had somehow made this move 200 years ago, he would have used classical music. If it had been 30 years from now, rap. He used what was most comfortable and recognizable for the audience so that they’d get over the splendiforousness of the music and enjoy the ride. I think the main theme is almost painfully obvious: Love is good, even when it sucks, so seize it while you have it and love with all your heart yackity bladdah carpe diem barbaric yawp. There’s also something in there about suffering and Art-with-a-capital-A, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/36 "2008-11-05T15:35:41Z")
I’ve already said my piece about this movie, in [“Moulin Rouge” is a big foetid, stinking, steaming pile of crap](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254663&highlight=Moulin+Rouge). Among my conclusions in that thread: > [@acsenray](#): > > I hated the cliched (not even warmed over) plot. I myself am a romantic, but I just don’t want to see this particular fictional romantic cliche once again. The dialogue and acting seemed to be complete afterthoughts … indeed, mere MacGuffins for the ongoing, nonsensical spectacle. > > I hated how it took good actors like Broadbent, MacGregor, and Leguizamo and forced them to mouth idiotic dialogue and give unconvincing performances. (Kidman is, of course, already one of the consistently worst actors on screen, so no big surprise there.) > > And, hey, choreography? I can do without choreography in a movie. Nothing bores me more. The only time I’ve ever been anything but bored by choreography in a movie is the dance sequence in “Boogie Nights.” > > … > > … the use of Elton John’s song in the movie, as well as any of the other pop songs … none of it was creative, interesting, or appealling at all. It just seemed supremely lazy. Especially when there were long stretches of dialogue that were nothing more than quotes from dozens of pop songs. > > … > > Well, I groaned with disgust every time I recognised a song. It seemed like nothing so much as name-dropping to me. > > … > > I recognise that a lot of hard work went into the visuals and production (basically the technical aspects) of the movie. I found the story, dialogue, characters, and acting to be uninspired, lazy, dull, cliched, boring, boring, boring, and cringeworthy. ---
**Author:** ![WomanofScorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@WomanofScorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WomanofScorn)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/37 "2008-11-05T15:59:25Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > and probably my single favorite moment- > [The Roxanne Tango](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHO5KWIMZUo)- possibly the most brilliant rearrangement ever made of a pop song into another format, not to mention one of the greatest choreographed dance scenes in the past generation. I have no words of wisdom, but I came in here to mention that specifically. I will rewind that and watch it over and over! I bought the soundtrack and blast it while in my car and people look at me strange, but I don’t care! Love love love love love it. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/38 "2008-11-05T16:22:10Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’ve already said my piece about this movie, in [“Moulin Rouge” is a big foetid, stinking, steaming pile of crap](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254663&highlight=Moulin+Rouge). Among my conclusions in that thread: Hm. Maybe you should stop watching musicals? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/39 "2008-11-05T16:43:42Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Hm. Maybe you should stop watching musicals? Maybe, but I am not sure that \*\*acsenray \*\*is so far off the mark. Yes, he (she?) missed directors point when it came to the song choices, but then so did **lissener** and if two people who clearly have very different perspectives on the film miss the point like that, then I think that the director fell down on the job. The primary job of a director is to express ideas in a clear manner so the audience understands what he is trying to say. Baz didn’t make that happen. As far as the story, it’s La Boheme, and again, La Boheme isn’t famous because of it’s amazing plot. It was already a cliche when it it was first produced and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the two most famous adaptation of the story, Moulin Rouge and Rent, get knocked for the crappy plotting and shallow characters. The story is shallow and manipulative in a way that you can only get away with in Opera because the story is secondary to the music in that medium. I do strongly disagree with **acsenray** on the question of the acting in the film, and with the characterization of Nicole Kidman as “…of course, already one of the consistently worst actors on screen…” I tend not to discuss acting on the SDMB because I get worked up over stuff like that and it doesn’t do anyone any good, but the above is factually inaccurate and disliking the style of the acting and dialogue in the film is, once again, missing the point. At the end of the day though, if enough people “miss the point” I don’t think you can really blame the people. As I said in my last post, I think Baz is a genius of a really high calibre, the likes of which we haven’t seen in years. I don’t think his work in film to date has reached his potential, and I think that at the end of the day Moulin Rouge is a miss. It’s a glorious, Babe Ruth swinging for the back of the stadium miss, but still a miss. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801/40 "2008-11-05T17:06:12Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Maybe, but I am not sure that \*\*acsenray \*\*is so far off the mark. Maybe, maybe not – I was responding more to > [@ascenray](#): > > And, hey, choreography? I can do without choreography in a movie. Nothing bores me more. The only time I’ve ever been anything but bored by choreography in a movie is the dance sequence in “Boogie Nights.” If you don’t want to watch “choreography,” don’t watch musicals. Except _Meet Me in St. Louis_, of course – though I doubt s/he would care for that either. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-was-a-film-a-very-strange-enchanted-film-moulin-rouge-thread/470801.md?page=3)