# There Will Be Blood \[Boxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539 "2008-01-06T22:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/41 "2008-01-23T04:24:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] You’ve never been in a Pentecostal church, have you? [/quote] As a matter of fact, I have. > [@](#): > > That’s not how it’s intended. This movie is in no way intended as an allegory about the Middle East or any current events. > > It’s an allegory alright, just not about anything current or political, and the characters are anything but poorly developed. I think you might just have to see it again. OK, educate me. What is the allegory? (I suspected an allegory of the Middle East because you have to make allowances for the religious nutters to get at the oil. But I’m willing to believe that’s not what was intended.) **Equipoise** , the Academy also nominated, and gave the Oscar to, _Crash_. I seem to recall you disagreeing with that choice. Did you just not _get it_? Your tone is awfully arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/42 "2008-01-23T04:33:09Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] [spoiler]But I did feel sorry for the poor bastard. He did have a redeeming quality: he really loved HW. Gave up on caring for him too soon, but given what had happened, there were mitigating circumstances, and I think he did deserve to be forgiven by him. He’s evil, yes, but we get to know him so well, and know that he’s also so desperately unhappy that we still have to look at him at least a little fondly. It’s a tragedy in the old sense, were a great man is undone by his own flaws. The film’s only flaw, IMHO, was that it was too easy to confuse the Sunday twins. It took me a bit to realize that Paul and Eli weren’t supposed to be the same person, and that Eli wasn’t running a very deep scam on his own father.[/spoiler] [/QUOTE] [spoiler]Plainview did not love HW. What he said at the end was the truth (also remember his speech to his brother.) At first Plainview used HW to get in good with people. Then HW is all fucked up and useless so he sends him away. But remember he does not send him away until his “brother” shows up and he can have a new partner. And he does not bring him back until his “brother” is dead. What we learn about this guy is that he really does hate people. He wants to live alone in a big house. When HW tells him that he is going to Mexico Plainview can finally stop pretending to give a shit about him. Then when kills Eli he has everything he wanted. Revenge on everyone and his big empty house. This is a guy is like the complete opposite of Michael is the Godfather. To Michael the cost of power is his family. The same is true for Plainview. Only the cost to Michael is losing his family, but for Plainview it is getting one. The story is not a tragedy because Plainview has no fatal flaw. The only “flaw” he has is that he does care about the idea of family. But this actually keeps him from getting what he really wants. Then gets rid of HW and get revenge on Eli he has everything he ever wanted. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/43 "2008-01-23T04:34:34Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] As a matter of fact, I have. [/quote] Well then you should be familiar with the kind of charismatic preaching shown in the movie. That kind of stuff exists. I’ve seen it. > [@](#): > > OK, educate me. What is the allegory? Competing archetypal American ideologies. Capitalism and Religion. Both ultimately used in fraudulent, self-serving, manipulative ways. but each keenly aware of the other’s corruption, even when they occasionally need each other. In the end, capitalism will destroy religion – will “drink its milkshake” but will be left empty and soulless in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/44 "2008-01-23T04:38:04Z")
Crash was an excellent movie and it was Oscar-worthy. Worthy of an Oscar nomination, which it got. I just happened to think that Brokeback Mountain deserved the Best Picture Oscar that year, because I believe it’s the classic that will be remembered and still discussed in 20 years. Crash will always be a good movie, but it’ll be forgotten. I do tend to be arrogant about movies, because I trust my taste in movies, as I’m sure you do, but I’m not the one disregarding critical consensus. And unless you’re one of those Norbit-loving “Who gives a shit what the critics say…if they like it, I’ll hate it” then you should at least consider the possibility that you’re just not seeing what others are rather than that everyone who is praising it is deluded. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/45 "2008-01-23T04:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Competing archetypal American ideologies. Capitalism and Religion. Both ultimately used in fraudulent, self-serving, manipulative ways. but each keenly aware of the other’s corruption, even when they occasionally need each other. In the end, capitalism will destroy religion – will “drink its milkshake” but will be left empty and soulless in the process. [/QUOTE] Not left empty and soulless - that is the way he (and capitalism) starts. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/46 "2008-01-23T04:42:18Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] [spoiler]Plainview did not love HW. What he said at the end was the truth (also remember his speech to his brother.) At first Plainview used HW to get in good with people. Then HW is all fucked up and useless so he sends him away. But remember he does not send him away until his “brother” shows up and he can have a new partner. And he does not bring him back until his “brother” is dead. What we learn about this guy is that he really does hate people. He wants to live alone in a big house. When HW tells him that he is going to Mexico Plainview can finally stop pretending to give a shit about him. Then when kills Eli he has everything he wanted. Revenge on everyone and his big empty house. This is a guy is like the complete opposite of Michael is the Godfather. To Michael the cost of power is his family. The same is true for Plainview. Only the cost to Michael is losing his family, but for Plainview it is getting one. The story is not a tragedy because Plainview has no fatal flaw. The only “flaw” he has is that he does care about the idea of family. But this actually keeps him from getting what he really wants. Then gets rid of HW and get revenge on Eli he has everything he ever wanted. [/spoiler] [/QUOTE] I don’t know about this. H.W. is the only person Daniel ever says “I love you” to and he says it when he knows the boy is deaf and can’t hear him. I think he did love the kid and that his speech to H.W. at the end was pure bravado. It’s not for nothing that he drinks himself into a stupor after that and his rage towards Eli is driven largely by the fact that Eli made him confess the truth about his son and, in a figurative way, represent’s Daniel’s conscience about it. By killing Eli, he is trying to kill his own conscience, his own last remaining remnant of humanity. He thinks it’s what he wants but it isn’t. He’s more miserable than he’s ever been. The only time he is anything cose to happy is in his interactions – as troubled as they are – with H.W. and with Henry. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/47 "2008-01-23T04:43:26Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] Plainview did not love HW. [/QUOTE] I disagree strenuously. Plainview DOES care about HW, it’s obvious in several different scenes. Sure he uses him, and yes he abandones him, and absolutely he pushes him away at the end, but there is love. It’s just stunted, and mishandled, and ultimately thrown away. That’s the tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/48 "2008-01-23T04:45:27Z")
God Dio, you say it all so much better than I could. That was wonderful! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/49 "2008-01-23T04:49:35Z")
Well, I am not a lone voice, anyway. [Here’s a review that captures some of my problems with the film.](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/there_will_be_blood/articles/1698702/) Some highlights: > [@](#): > > There Will Be Blood has the passion of an unforgettable performance and the mesmerizing look of a capitalist hell. But by the end of an exhausting two hours and forty minutes, it’s hard to find any meat on its beautiful bones… > > …We see a basically selfish man degenerate into complete and utter madness. And if all of this sounds interesting, it isn’t. The characters, the story, and the themes are the weaknesses of There Will Be Blood. But it has two undeniable virtues that, nonetheless, make it compelling. [Daniel Day Lewis and the stunning cinematography, as I noted in my earlier post.]… > > …Discordant music runs throughout the film, pushing the intensity and heightening the anxiety. Some will find this exhilarating and edgy, while others will be looking in their purse or pockets for some aspirin… > > …But Plainview lacks genius, never doing anything that suggests an interesting mind. He works hard for reasons that are never explained- seemingly uninterested in pleasing God through his diligence or himself through the commodity consumption and power that come from success. He has a relationship with his son that is depicted without being explored… > > …We don’t understand Plainview’s own childhood; only that he had one and it meant something to him. We never glimpse what drives him, only that he is driven. Early in the film, he seems the rapacious capitalist. Then we begin to see him as more than amorally greedy, but malicious and cruel. Then we come to see him as a raving lunatic. Did his greed make him this way? Is there a conscience lurking inside him that drives him mad? Never knowing, we have only his grizzly evil and a charismatic performance to sustain interest in him. Ultimately, we not only never care about him, if we were ever meant to, but we lose interest in him… > > …There Will Be Blood has no characters who repay our working to get inside them, and it has no thoughts beyond clichés about our country… Yep. That pretty well speaks to my problems with the movie. Forgot to mention the score. I love Radiohead, but Thom Yorke’s score for this film is just painful. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/50 "2008-01-23T04:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Crash was an excellent movie and it was Oscar-worthy. Worthy of an Oscar nomination, which it got. I just happened to think that Brokeback Mountain deserved the Best Picture Oscar that year, because I believe it’s the classic that will be remembered and still discussed in 20 years. Crash will always be a good movie, but it’ll be forgotten. [/QUOTE] Well, time will tell, I suppose, which films from this year are forgotten. I shall bookmark this thread for a renewal of our discussion 20 years hence! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/51 "2008-01-23T04:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t know about this. H.W. is the only person Daniel ever says “I love you” to and he says it when he knows the boy is deaf and can’t hear him. I think he did love the kid and that his speech to H.W. at the end was pure bravado. It’s not for nothing that he drinks himself into a stupor after that and his rage towards Eli is driven largely by the fact that Eli made him confess the truth about his son and, in a figurative way, represent’s Daniel’s conscience about it. By killing Eli, he is trying to kill his own conscience, his own last remaining remnant of humanity. He thinks it’s what he wants but it isn’t. He’s more miserable than he’s ever been. The only time he is anything cose to happy is in his interactions – as troubled as they are – with H.W. and with Henry. [/QUOTE] [spoiler]But when he tells HW that he is trying to get him back. It is pretty clear that HW hates Plainview at this point. When HW is hurt Plainview leaves him to look over the rig. He knows that HW is really hurt. He even says as much to Ciarán Hinds. But he is laughing and excited about the oil and does not really give a damn about HW. The real key is when sends him away and when he brings him back. He sends him away when he no longer needs him as a partner and brings him back when he does. It is also clear that Plainview places a strong value on the idea of family. He wants a family business. He does not want anyone telling him how to run his family. But he also really hates people. This causes a real problem for him. But when HW turns on him he is free from the family thing because HW is just a competitor. He is not miserable he is going to be stuck in his big empty house at the end of the movie. Look at the look on his face. It is joy. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/52 "2008-01-23T04:56:38Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] I disagree strenuously. Plainview DOES care about HW, it’s obvious in several different scenes. Sure he uses him, and yes he abandones him, and absolutely he pushes him away at the end, but there is love. It’s just stunted, and mishandled, and ultimately thrown away. That’s the tragedy. [/QUOTE] [spolier]When does Plainview ever do anything for HW that is not in his interest?[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/53 "2008-01-23T05:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Well, I am not a lone voice, anyway. [Here’s a review that captures some of my problems with the film.](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/there_will_be_blood/articles/1698702/) Some highlights: [/QUOTE] If we’re gonna cite Rotten Tomatoes, I’d bring up the scoring, which is 90%, 128 Fresh, 14 Rotten. So, 14 people don’t like it and you’re going to post from one of them? I could, but I won’t, post bits and pieces from the 128 critics who do like it. Each to their own, each to their own. [QUOTE=spoke-] Forgot to mention the score. I love Radiohead, but Thom Yorke’s score for this film is just painful. [/QUOTE] It’s Jonny Greenwood’s score, and it’s freaking brilliant, perfect for the movie. I’ve never heard a score that electrified me and mesmerized me as much as this one. It was familliar yet alien, much like Plainview himself. I’m so angry it was disqualified, especially after the ballots had already gone out, and it almost certainly got enough votes to be nominated. ---
**Author:** ![Neidhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Neidhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neidhart)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/54 "2008-01-23T12:14:45Z")
I didn’t like the music. It sounded like an air-raid siren. Annoying and distracting. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/55 "2008-01-23T13:43:15Z")
Revised title: **There Will Be A Tediously Long, Pretentious Movie With A Loud, Intrusive Soundtrack** And I have to say that I largely agree with **spoke-**'s review. I suspect that some of the critical acclaim for this movie has to do with its targeting organized religion and the oil industry. Not that I mind those two institutions getting ragged, but it doesn’t make up for the film’s defects. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/56 "2008-01-23T16:57:22Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] If we’re gonna cite Rotten Tomatoes, I’d bring up the scoring, which is 90%, 128 Fresh, 14 Rotten. So, 14 people don’t like it and you’re going to post from one of them? I could, but I won’t, post bits and pieces from the 128 critics who do like it. Each to their own, each to their own. [/QUOTE] Hey, only one kid noticed that the emperor was nekkid. I cited that particular review because it hits all the highlights of the problems I had with the movie. Why reinvent the wheel? > [@](#): > > It’s Jonny Greenwood’s score, and it’s freaking brilliant, perfect for the movie. Well I knew there was a Radiohead connection. Thought it was Yorke, but you’re right; it’s Greenwood. Either way, it’s fingernails on a chalkboard. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/57 "2008-01-23T17:08:00Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Revised title: **There Will Be A Tediously Long, Pretentious Movie With A Loud, Intrusive Soundtrack** And I have to say that I largely agree with **spoke-**'s review. I suspect that some of the critical acclaim for this movie has to do with its targeting organized religion and the oil industry. Not that I mind those two institutions getting ragged, but it doesn’t make up for the film’s defects. [/QUOTE] And I wonder in turn whether some of few brickbats the movie has received are more connected with the attacks on religion than the quality of acting, directing, writing, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/58 "2008-01-23T17:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] And I wonder in turn whether some of few brickbats the movie has received are more connected with the attacks on religion than the quality of acting, directing, writing, etc. [/QUOTE] Well, not in my case, if that’s what you’re wondering. I’m an atheist myself. On the other hand, I don’t believe (as this movie seems to) that all people who go to church are either corrupt or stupid. If I were a churchgoer, I would find the movie deeply insulting. As it is, I merely find it annoyingly inaccurate in its depiction of church services and religious faith. But even if the movie had gotten that part right, it would still be saddled with shallow characters and a meandering plot. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/59 "2008-01-23T18:50:30Z")
It’s not inaccurate at all about charismatic Christianity. That’s exactly what those preachers act like. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/60 "2008-01-28T00:01:31Z")
Sorry to revive this thread, hopefully it’s not too late to do so. Just saw the movie last night, and it is easily one of the best movies of the last decade. I can see how it might not be someone’s cup 'o tea, but to call it mediocre or forgettable, blows my mind. There’s a difference between ‘mediocre’ and ‘just not your style.’ And **spoke-** I was raised in a pentecostal church, and believe me, it felt very authentic, especially considering the times. This period birthed this sort of religious practice. The only reason to think pentecostals would be offended by the depiction, is perhaps because the portrayal hits a little too close to home. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539.md?page=4)