# There Will Be Blood \[Boxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539 "2008-01-06T22:56:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/101 "2008-02-11T14:26:36Z")
It’s no revelation that DDL based his character’s voice on John Huston. As far as that goes, it’s a better one than Clint Eastwood’s in _White Hunter, Black Heart_ but not as good as Albert Finney’s in _Annie_ I like a good oil baron movie as much as the next guy. Compared to TWBB, _Oklahoma Crude_ made its point with more economy, such as when George C. Scott shoved the gun under Jack Palance’s chin and urinated on him, or Faye Dunaway’s “I wish I had both (sex) parts, so I could do it with myself” speech. And speaking of subtleties, in _Boom Town_ there’s a nice bit where they have fun with the censors when Heddy Lamarr arrives with her private train car, and Clark Gable looks it over and says “nice caboose” as they have a quick shot of Heddy checking out Clark’s butt. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/102 "2008-02-11T14:29:13Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] It has for me. Your mileage obviously varies; why does my mileage upset you so? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t. But you’re saying the movie has failed if you notice the soundtrack as if that were some immutable law of movie-making. It’s \*much \* different than saying, “I’m only capable of enjoying movies where the soundtrack disappears into the background,” which is what you mean. It doesn’t make me upset, but you’ll understand why people don’t really respect such a limited opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/103 "2008-02-11T14:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] But you’re saying the movie has failed if you notice the soundtrack as if that were some immutable law of movie-making. [/QUOTE] That is an inference on your part that I have already attempted to correct. If I say “the film has failed”, it means it has _failed for me._ I don’t how to make it any clearer to you. I stand my my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/104 "2008-02-11T14:43:22Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] It doesn’t make me upset, but you’ll understand why people don’t really respect such a limited opinion. [/QUOTE] Several people in this thread do respect it, so I see no reason to respect your conclusion that people in general do not. As to why I hold such an audacious standard: I believe the story is the most important part of movie-making. Anything that detracts from telling the story is a problem. To _me._ Apparently, I must add that qualification to every comment I post here. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/105 "2008-02-11T14:44:49Z")
You must REALLY hate musicals. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/106 "2008-02-11T14:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] You must REALLY hate musicals. [/QUOTE] You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/107 "2008-02-11T14:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] As to why I hold such an audacious standard: I believe the story is the most important part of movie-making. Anything that detracts from telling the story is a problem. [/QUOTE] But, soundtracks don’t DETRACT from telling the story. They contribute to it. A movie isn’t an expository essay. When DDL broke his leg in the first scene, they pan up to show a massive empty landscape. Then they show him drag himself into the silver trader with a splint on his leg. Perhaps you would have liked a narrator saying, “then, Mr Plainview dragged himself across the barren landscape with a broken leg because he loved making money so much.” Anderson is telling a story with an image. And, sometimes you do it with music. I mean, have you ever seen Jaws? Can I assume that that minor second (maybe major second?) “theme” detracted you from enjoying the shark story? Darth Vader? What does he lose without his theme music? The triumphant end of Star Wars. What are these things without that music getting into your soul? Do you see why that statement you made would bug someone? If you didn’t like the compositions in this soundtrack, that’s one thing. But what you’re saying about it is ust to deny an integral part of almost every movie ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/108 "2008-02-11T15:08:29Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] Perhaps you would have liked a narrator saying, “then, Mr Plainview dragged himself across the barren landscape with a broken leg because he loved making money so much.” [/QUOTE] I hate narrators. > [@](#): > > I mean, have you ever seen Jaws? > > Can I assume that that minor second (maybe major second?) “theme” detracted you from enjoying the shark story? > > Darth Vader? What does he lose without his theme music? The triumphant end of Star Wars. What are these things without that music getting into your soul? Now you are trying to infer that I want movies with no music at all. I think all your examples are excellent cases where the music supported the story, and I was not focussing on how unrelated the music seemed at the time I was watching the movie, as I was in TWBB. > [@](#): > > Do you see why that statement you made would bug someone? I do not. Really, your need to love this movie must be based on some really weak reasons if my opinion bugs you so much. > [@](#): > > If you didn’t like the compositions in this soundtrack, that’s one thing. That’s the only thing I have expressed here. If the compositions detract from the story, they are bad. If they support the story they are good. To _me_. > [@](#): > > But what you’re saying about it is ust to deny an integral part of almost every movie ever made. No. Only the ones with annoying soundtracks. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/109 "2008-02-11T15:13:29Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] When DDL broke his leg in the first scene, they pan up to show a massive empty landscape. Then they show him drag himself into the silver trader with a splint on his leg. [/QUOTE] Did you notice that the same music that plays at the beginning, when he’s digging for silver, is played later when he’s digging Henry’s grave? I didn’t the first time I saw it. I thought that was a nice touch. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/110 "2008-02-11T15:17:41Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Now you are trying to infer that I want movies with no music at all. [/QUOTE] No, I’m not. I’m referring to you claiming that “the music should never intrude on the story”, not your new point of view that you just thought this soundtrack failed compositionally. OK. . .I’m an oil man. I’ll speak plainly: I’m trying to point out how unsophisticated **Fear Itsel** is as an example of a person who doesn’t like this movie. As an example of his unsophistication, I’m trying to demonstrate how absurd his statements about the use of soundtracks are by extending those arguments to other movies. Although, he seems to be changing what he was trying to say midstream as that dawns on him. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/111 "2008-02-11T15:18:54Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Did you notice that the same music that plays at the beginning, when he’s digging for silver, is played later when he’s digging Henry’s grave? I didn’t the first time I saw it. I thought that was a nice touch. [/QUOTE] Not as much as I noticed the visual parallels. There were a lot of self-referential touches in this movie. I’m sure that it is rewarding on repeated viewings. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/112 "2008-02-11T15:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] ..I’m trying to demonstrate how absurd his statements about the use of soundtracks are by extending those arguments to other movies. [/QUOTE] Then you are committing a strawman fallacy. My argument raises no objection to music that supports the story, no matter how much you wish it to be so. > [@](#): > > Although, he seems to be changing what he was trying to say midstream as that dawns on him. Again, this is only true inside your head. Nothing I have said implies this. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/113 "2008-02-11T15:21:44Z")
Give it up Trunk. I did. You can’t argue taste. It’s a very divisive film and it’s not going to appeal to everybody. Those of us who love the film know what we have on our side: the film itself. It needs no defense, and you can’t argue someone into liking striking film music when they don’t even like musicals. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/114 "2008-02-11T15:23:41Z")
Nothing personal against any of the posters here, but I think you should start a separate thread about the merits or disadvantages of movie soundtracks if you want to keep debating this. I was under the impression that this thread was supposed to specifically be discussing the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/115 "2008-02-11T15:24:49Z")
[QUOTE=Equipoise] Give it up Trunk. I did. You can’t argue taste. It’s a very divisive film and it’s not going to appeal to everybody. Those of us who love the film know what we have on our side: the film itself. It needs no defense, and you can’t argue someone into liking striking film music when they don’t even like musicals. [/QUOTE] Now I can agree with everything you have said here. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/116 "2008-02-11T17:22:12Z")
**Argent Towers** , the bowling alley was in his mansion, and the guy who he killed was a preacher who he’d been battling with for twenty years at that point. Eli Sunday, played by Paul Dano; a careful reading of the thread should fill in most of the gaps. (You should really see the movie again, though.) > [@Equipoise](#): > > Give it up Trunk. I did. You can’t argue taste. It’s a very divisive film and it’s not going to appeal to everybody. Those of us who love the film know what we have on our side: the film itself. I don’t mean to patronize you, but this is definitely a step forward for the fight against ignorance in movie threads, and I’m glad to see you take it. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/117 "2008-02-11T19:59:50Z")
I saw this on Thursday night and have been pondering it since then. It’s a masterpiece. Flat out. Filmmaking on a completely different level from the average, or even the great. That being said, one of the things that distinguish brilliant films is that they aren’t liked by everybody. That can be said about everything, of course, not just masterpieces. It doesn’t matter how good somebody thinks a movie is, or how popular it might be; it simply won’t connect with everybody. There are people who don’t like _E.T._ or _The Godfather_ or _Independence Day_ and so on ad nauseum. However, what generally separates the _standard_ “didn’t like it” from the _masterpiece_ “didn’t like it” is the vehemence of the response. If somebody doesn’t enjoy, say, _Music and Lyrics_, they can shrug it off with a “meh” and feel no need to say anything further. But if somebody is mystified or bored by, say, _Brick_, there’s an obvious compulsion to react strongly against the glowing praise being heaped on the film; the criticism from the naysayers is much, much more forceful. Which leads inexorably to a couple of recurring questions. [QUOTE=well he’s back] Why does it piss people off if other people dislike this film?? I’m starting to get the same vibe about it that I did with “Eyes Wide Shut” [/QUOTE] I’ll come back to the first sentence in a bit, but right now, the second observation is worth considering. Comparing _There Will Be Blood_ to Kubrick is directly on point, I think. That has come up a couple of times in this thread, with respect to the soundtrack, but I think the comparison goes a lot deeper than that. Kubrick is known for his detached, observational approach. He watches, and occasionally analyzes; he never uses a subjective point of view. He wants us outside the action, and outside the characters, looking at them, looking at their experiences and their choices. He has been criticized as being “cold,” but I think that’s wrong; it’s not that he’s unsympathetic, it’s just that he is _unsentimental._ One of the reasons he fell in love with the Steadicam, for example, is how it detaches the camera from the floor, and turns it into a floating disembodied eye. Handheld, you feel the cameraman’s feet on the ground; on track, you can feel the camera’s wheels in the rails. The Steadicam’s view removes this subconscious sense of the camera as a physical object, allowing Kubrick to achieve his idealized detachment. He doesn’t judge his characters morally; he simply looks at them doing whatever they do, and says, Isn’t that interesting. _There Will Be Blood_ has much the same observational, and more importantly _nonjudgemental_, quality. We may be able to sympathize with various characters at various points, but we are not intended to _identify with_ any of them particularly. We see what they do, and we understand, more or less, why they do it; and we are expected to leave the theater thinking as much as (or more than) feeling. (This is a major contrast with just about every other major filmmaker, from Spielberg to Bay. When you walk out of the cinema after _Saving Private Ryan_ or _Transformers_, you aren’t thinking much at all, but holy shit are you _feeling_ stuff.) That being said, it’s absolutely true that one cannot argue taste. Whether one personally enjoys or dislikes a film is entirely subjective, and individual, and not worthy of debate. I can’t argue anybody into enjoying _There Will Be Blood_ (or _Into the Wild_ or _No Country for Old Men_ or any of the other difficult-but-rewarding films that came out this year) any more than somebody could argue me into _not_ enjoying them. But where I and film fans like me take umbrage is when the naysayers step past the boundary of personal distaste and argue that the film is _objectively_ bad, that it is a failure, period, and that those who appreciate it are _wrong._ I mentioned _Brick_ above; while you’ll find a lot of people who like it, and many who love it unreasonably, you’ll also find a small but aggressive number of viewers who label it “pretentious” and “stupid” and think it’s a piece of shit. I could go on at great length on that subject, but I won’t – because [I already have, elsewhere](http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2126161#post2126161). In that post, on a different message board, I go on for many paragraphs about the disconnect between so-called “high level” film discussion and the viewpoint of the mainstream viewer, and I conclude that while it’s entirely valid for somebody to say “I hated it,” that personal opinion has zero bearing on the film’s merits as a work of art. Seriously, go read it. I’ll wait. … Welcome back, I hope you enjoyed it. 😉 Anyway, the point here is that the discussion gets acrimonious when people are talking past one another. One person says, “The movie failed because the music was disruptive.” Someone else says, “You mean, the movie failed _for you_ because of the music.” The first person says, “That’s what I said.” No, that’s not what was said, to be technically accurate. However, given that it is what is _usually **meant** _, there’s something to the notion that the second person should simply take it as given that that’s what was intended. Except that this unexamined assumption can lead to additional miscommunication, if the first person did, in fact, mean that he believes that the subconsciousness of a film score is a valid measure for the success of the film. It is, I find, exactly in these unwarranted assumptions that most of the venom in these debates can be found, and I will typically support or join the side of the debate that seeks clarification of expression, rather than the side that takes offense when things like this are not simply taken for granted. And that’s not all, either. Sure, feel free to dislike _There Will Be Blood._ You thought Day-Lewis’s performance was stagy, fine. The music was distracting, fine. But: You think the story fails because the script leaves out plot points and skips over major sections of the narrative and doesn’t explain why everybody does what they do, man, you’d better have a better argument than “it felt that way to me,” because that’s a comment on filmic structure and objective storytelling style, and you have to have your shit together, relating the detached viewpoint of this film to the detachment of Kubrick or comparing it to the non-detachment of Coppola or the cynical judgementalism of Wilder or the casual naturalism of Altman or any of a hundred other valid reference points. It’s one thing to say the story didn’t work for you, and that it therefore _failed_ in some Platonic sense. It’s another thing entirely to look at the film and recognize that it makes its narrative choices _specifically and deliberately_, and then to consider _why_ its choices are made the way they are, and _then_ to decide that the style doesn’t work for you, for whatever reason, _personally._ Me, I can’t wait to see it again. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/118 "2008-02-11T20:21:37Z")
Good stuff **Cervaise**. I’d be interested in hearing more of your take on TWBB, esp if you see it again. I think you linked to that write-up from the NCFOM thread – it’s definitely worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/119 "2008-02-11T22:59:56Z")
[QUOTE=Trunk] **Argent** – when he put the towel over his head and yelled at the other businessmen. [/QUOTE] Can somebody talk about this particular scene? It was the only one that confused me a little. Was he just covering his face so that his son couldn’t read his lips? Was he just being crazy? (When I want to explore all the nuances of a film is when I feel it’s hit ‘brilliant’ status for me, personally) ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539/120 "2008-02-11T23:08:52Z")
[QUOTE=xanthous] Was he just covering his face so that his son couldn’t read his lips? [/QUOTE] Bingo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-will-be-blood-boxed-spoilers/432539.md?page=7)