# "There's a fine line between clever and stupid" - who would you argue is clever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 8, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204 "2016-08-08T23:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/21 "2016-08-17T14:12:05Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I found the [Jackson Pollock simulator](http://www.jacksonpollock.org/) on the web and played around with it for a while (left-click to change the color). When I compared my “creations” with the real thing I was struck how lifeless mine were in comparison. Perhaps it’s because I wasn’t handling a physical medium but I think it’s more Pollock had something I lack. > > Rothko I have no opinion. There are plenty of Modern Art threads on the SDMB - perhaps search on “Rothko” or the user **capybara,** whom I haven’t seen lately but is an expert and patient with the Modern Art is all Crap types. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/22 "2016-08-17T15:10:13Z")
I’m having a brain fart moment as to exactly what acts/shows/movies qualify, but I have to think that a lot of comedy straddles this particular edge. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/23 "2016-08-17T15:15:57Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’m having a brain fart moment as to exactly what acts/shows/movies qualify, but I have to think that a lot of comedy straddles this particular edge. Good point, I nominate **Zoolander** as a film that is both stupid and clever. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/24 "2016-08-17T15:28:52Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Good point, I nominate **Zoolander** as a film that is both stupid and clever. Oh yeah! **Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure** Something like **Buckaroo Banzai** , too! ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/25 "2016-08-17T22:53:13Z")
Toby Keith himself described “[Red Solo Cup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKZqGJONH68)” as “the stupidest thing I’ve ever written”, but I think it’s pretty damned clever 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/26 "2016-08-22T18:13:47Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Oh yeah! > > **Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure** > > Something like **Buckaroo Banzai** , too! Yeah, I was thinking of Buckaroo, wondering if it was appropriate for this thread. I really loved this movie. I recently re-watched it with my son. Yet I don’t really know if it’s genius, or stupid, or both. The cheesiness of the production values and dialog contrasts with the caliber of the actors in a very interesting way. The weirdest part is how seriously the movie takes itself. It certainly has many layers. But also, the plot is actually a bit lame and the dialog is often wooden and expository. For me, I think the big thrill is imagining a world where there could be a Buckaroo Banzai person, a comic book character in real life. (That’s why I love lines like- hunter looks at comic book with his flashlight and says, “It’s ‘Buckaroo Banzai’; it’s the latest issue.”) I’m guessing the actors either had a blast making that movie, or hated every minute. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/27 "2016-08-22T18:32:38Z")
Laugh a-while you can Monkey Boy!! So many great, stupid lines in that movie. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/28 "2016-08-22T18:46:53Z")
Oh lord, _Buckaroo Banzai_ is probably the poster child for this idea, if anything is. It’s dialogue is littered with priceless jewels that make you wonder if there actually is a line, or if you can only accurately graph clever/stupid with the overlap of a Venn diagram Dr. Lizardo: Laugh(a) while you can, monkeyboy! The President: Buckaroo, I don’t know what to say. Lectroids? Planet 10? Nuclear extortion? A girl named “John”? And again, the Prez.: What are you talking about, man? Some kind of race war in New Jersey? Buckaroo Banzai: John Parker, take this wheel. Just… just hold on, that’s good. It flies like a truck. John Parker: Good. {pause} What is a truck? Buckaroo Banzai: {as the thermopod is in free-fall} Can’t you fly this thing? John Parker: I’m a diplomat! I failed flight school! New Jersey: Why is there a watermelon there? Reno Nevada: {after a pause} I’ll tell you later. Scooter Lindley (who is about 10 years old): Get away from that car, or I’ll drink your blood! Secretary of Defense: {noticing Scooter is holding an automatic rifle}Whatcha got there, son? That’s not… real, is it? Scooter Lindley: {fires a shot to the side} Get 'em up! ETA: Hahah! I actually say that to people IRL. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/29 "2016-08-22T18:58:23Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Laugh a-while you can Monkey Boy!! > > So many great, stupid lines in that movie. Overhead PA: “There are monkey-boys in the facility.” Billboard: “Yoyodyne- Where the Future Begins Tomorrow!” 😃 😃 😃 Gotta love’em. I could go on and on. They really had me when I bought the line about the promised sequel- I now believe it was a joke and they had no intention to deliver. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/30 "2016-08-22T19:27:25Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Overhead PA: “There are monkey-boys in the facility.” > > Billboard: “Yoyodyne- Where the Future Begins Tomorrow!” > > 😃 😃 😃 Gotta love’em. I could go on and on. > > They really had me when I bought the line about the promised sequel- I now believe it was a joke and they had no intention to deliver. Clearly, there _was_ completed sequel for Buckaroo Banzai vs. the World Crime League, but somehow it fell into nefarious hands! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/31 "2016-08-22T20:45:48Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Clearly, there _was_ completed sequel for Buckaroo Banzai vs. the World Crime League, but somehow it fell into nefarious hands! 😉 It must’ve been that she-devil, HRC! Lock her up! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/32 "2016-08-23T19:07:32Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Ah - I am an idiot. I hadn’t looked closely enough. Once I saw sheet music, I had a guitarist’s instinctive reaction: to panic and shut down that webpage 😉 I laughed like a loon at this. Thanks, man. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/33 "2016-08-23T22:56:23Z")
> [@Haldurson](#): > > I can explain why people think something is stupid. If you like something, it doesn’t matter how stupid it is – you like it. And if you dislike something, it doesn’t matter how clever it is, because it’s wasted on something you consider to be crap. > > And that’s basically it. > > You are never going to convince someone of anything regarding music that they don’t like by claiming that it’s clever. > > I’ll give you my own example of clever, and you tell me. When Bob Dylan first started, he sounded like this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWz88VY-FkA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWz88VY-FkA) > > The problem was, he wasn’t selling records. So he changed his voice to sound more like a blues singer: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHMBs5yZDEc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHMBs5yZDEc) > And sure enough, he started selling records. > > Now if you don’t like Dylans voice, I’ll never convince you that what he did was clever, and if you do like Dylan, it doesn’t matter how clever it was. Huh? I honestly can’t grasp what point you’re trying to make. Your first link is _Lay Lady Lay_ from 1969, when he had already sold tons of records with his “blues singer” voice as you put it. One of his biggest single hits btw. Second link, _The Time They Are-A Changing_, is from 1964. Heck, Dylan sounded never more like a blues man than on his very first album. Even if you unintentionally swapped the links, it wouldn’t make sense. He DID change his voice for 1969’s _Nashville Skyline_, nobody knows exactly why (he said it was caused by having stopped smoking. Right Bob ;)), but I’ve never heard anything about him trying to sound more commercial. This voice was in any way a brief intermezzo (and one of the many oddities) in his career that was forgotten after the next album, _Self Portrait_. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/34 "2016-08-23T23:11:24Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Whether someone likes or dislikes X is a different matter. Although I suspect that it’s just a matter of time before the thread devolves into the usual “X is so cool!” vs “No, you’re so dumb, X is stupid!” slapfest. > > We’re not there yet, though, so maybe we can get some more examples in. I think the more interesting cases is where you like something, and you’ll like it either way, but you still can’t decide whether it’s brilliant or dumb. It’s funny you should mention Dylan, since he’s like that for me at times. > > _Maggie comes fleet foot > Face full of black soot > Talkin’ that the heat put > Plants in the bed but > The phone’s tapped anyway > Maggie says that many say > They must bust in early May > Orders from the D.A. look out kid > Don’t matter what you did > Walk on your tip toes > Don’t try “No Doz” > Better stay away from those > That carry around a fire hose_ > > OK, that is either great poetry that was sweated over and revised endlessly, or just some weird stuff that Bob wrote down while drunk, on a napkin, in the back of a taxi, and then found the next day and decided to keep. It’s really hard to tell sometimes. I’m pretty sure that he employed both methods. This is probably my favorite Dylan verse of all, and I bet the napkin theory is much more probable, or maybe he wrote it in the back of the studio between two takes. That was his style of writing in those times. And right, later he employed the other method, in fact he had long spells of writer’s block later in his career, whereas he could write a song in ten minutes in the mid-sixties. For me, everything in those lines makes sense (except for “No Doz” because I don’t know what it means) and it gives me glimpses of the time and place in which it was written. Of course **WordMan** is right, the flow and the beat in those lines are crucial, that’s why they work better when Dylan sings them than printed on paper or pixels on a screen, respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/35 "2016-08-24T21:50:47Z")
“No Doz” = caffeine pills IIRC. Stone Age “Red Bull” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/36 "2016-08-24T22:31:18Z")
Ah, I’ve got one: for a while here on the SDMB, I have posted to Best Lyric-type threads with this. Also, there’s been a recent, kerfuffly Beatles Suck thread where “you show me your best Beatles lyric and I will show you better!!!” was tossed down all gauntlet-y (and shit). If it would’ve been productive, I would’ve posted it again there. **The Beatles, When I Saw Her Standing There** : "_She was just seventeen, you know what I mean."_ Paul thought it was stupid. He trotted it out as filler while he was trying to sell the song to John. John knew it was clever. Because, yeah, we knew _exactly_ what Paul meant. He told Paul “no way, keep it in!!” Fuckin’ A. I love that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/37 "2016-08-24T23:03:13Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Clever = Jackson Pollock. > Stupid = Mark Rothko. > > I definitely have a preference :D. Bingo! I totally “get” Pollock. I did from the very first canvas I saw. Rothko, I just don’t “get”. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/38 "2016-08-24T23:39:53Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > “No Doz” = caffeine pills IIRC. > > Stone Age “Red Bull” I don’t actually think he’s saying “No Doz”. I admit that I was lazy and grabbed the lyrics from the intertubes. Should have been more careful. I can’t tell with certainty from the record, but after some further research, I think the actual line is: > [@](#): > > don’t tie no bows ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/39 "2016-08-25T01:45:31Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I don’t actually think he’s saying “No Doz”. I admit that I was lazy and grabbed the lyrics from the intertubes. Should have been more careful. I can’t tell with certainty from the record, but after some further research, I think the actual line is: FWIW, this bugged me, so I checked my good old print copy of the official “Lyrics 1962-1985“, and there it is “Don’t try ‘No Doz’“. Although this is an official publication, it’s somehow infamous for sloppy transliteration and so there is no guarantee for accuracy, but this is how I also always heard it, without knowing the meaning until this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/40 "2016-08-25T02:33:30Z")
I swear I’m hearing “no bows”. Maybe I’m going nuts, though. Yet another possibility: In the famous [video](https://youtu.be/MGxjIBEZvx0?t=49), Bob is holding up a cue card at that point with the text “no dose”. Some of those cards are punny, though, so it doesn’t have to mean anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204.md?page=3)