# "There's a fine line between clever and stupid" - who would you argue is clever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 8, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204 "2016-08-08T23:29:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/41 "2016-08-25T02:43:04Z")
Hang on. What about [this version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mb3CoWwNyY)? I’m hearing “no bows” on that one, too. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/42 "2016-08-25T08:51:52Z")
Obviously, Lennon’s _I Am The Walrus_ was influenced by Dylan. I always figured a lot of the lyrics were just Lennon playing with the sound of the words and the rhythm of them, not the meanings. Although I’m sure there were some who spent hours trying to write academic papers on the deep meaning of lyrics like _“Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog’s eye”_ ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/43 "2016-08-25T11:48:49Z")
> [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > I swear I’m hearing “no bows”. Maybe I’m going nuts, though. > > Yet another possibility: In the famous [video](https://youtu.be/MGxjIBEZvx0?t=49), Bob is holding up a cue card at that point with the text “no dose”. Some of those cards are punny, though, so it doesn’t have to mean anything. > [@Martian Bigfoot](#): > > Hang on. What about [this version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mb3CoWwNyY)? > > I’m hearing “no bows” on that one, too. What do you think? You know what? Listening again (and I’ve listened to the song umpteen times, and I knew the alternate version too), I now clearly hear “Don’t tie no bows”. Whereas the aforementioned lyrics book and the official [Bob Dylan website](http://bobdylan.com/songs/subterranean-homesick-blues/) say “Don’t try No Doz”. But that doesn’t count for much, as I said Dylan lyrics were often sloppily transcribed, and he used to change lines in the studio on the spot between takes, and maybe his noted lyrics differed from the final sung version. There are many such ambiguities in his work. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/44 "2016-08-25T12:15:23Z")
I am reminded of the now banned poster lissner who defended Showgirls at every turn. It wasn’t a movie so poorly made it made stripping unwatchable and sex in a pool with Elizabeth Berkely an erection killer but a brilliant satire in which Paul Verhoeven’s genius flew over everyone’s head. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/45 "2016-08-25T12:50:25Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > [Stupid.](http://beautravail.tumblr.com/post/30939508264/the-first-tacet-edition-score-of-john-cages) > > [Clever.](http://opus11.tumblr.com/image/51638721599) > > This is arguable of course and both “pieces” are completely anecdotal in my opinion but at least **Schulhoff** had to work a bit. It makes me smile whereas the **Cage** … not so much. Well, not for the first time Stupid had a better PR machine than Clever. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/46 "2016-08-25T13:39:19Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Similar to The Ramones: people dismissed them as loud punks, but when you read about them, and actually listen, they loved Phil Spector’s Wall of Sound pop songs, couldn’t afford or know what to do with a roomful of studio musicians, so they consciously tried to get that filled-in sound with guitar distortion. Same with their lyrics. People may say they were simplistic or didn’t make any sense, but I find songs like _Teenage Lobotomy_ or _Cretin Hop_ very clever (isn’t “Guess I have to break the news, that I got no mind to lose” a great line?). Those lyrics perfectly matched the music, and Joey’s obsession with mental illness was grounded in his own lifetime struggles, and in my book were a perfect expression of handling them. Though the Ramones may never have heard of Hans Arp or Kurt Schwitters, there’s a common thread from 1916 Cabaret Voltaire, Zurich Dada to modern Punk (if anybody is interested further, I can only recommend Greil Marcus’ book [Lipstick Traces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_Traces:_A_Secret_History_of_the_20th_Century) about those commonalities). Primitive doesn’t always equal dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/47 "2016-08-25T13:54:03Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I am reminded of the now banned poster lissner who defended Showgirls at every turn. It wasn’t a movie so poorly made it made stripping unwatchable and sex in a pool with Elizabeth Berkely an erection killer but a brilliant satire in which Paul Verhoeven’s genius flew over everyone’s head. Must have been weird not having anybody come on him. [QUOTE=Ranger Jeff] Obviously, Lennon’s _I Am The Walrus_ was influenced by Dylan. I always figured a lot of the lyrics were just Lennon playing with the sound of the words and the rhythm of them, not the meanings. Although I’m sure there were some who spent hours trying to write academic papers on the deep meaning of lyrics like _“Yellow matter custard dripping from a dead dog’s eye”_ [/QUOTE] He deliberately wrote the song to fuck with people who did just that with other Beatles songs - IIRC he’d received mail from a kid whose teacher had given them such an assignment, and had become furious. “Let’s see you analyze \*this, \*fuckers” was the sentiment, if not the actual quote (my Beatles biog is out of arms’ reach). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204/48 "2016-08-25T18:17:36Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I am reminded of the now banned poster lissner who defended Showgirls at every turn. It wasn’t a movie so poorly made it made stripping unwatchable and sex in a pool with Elizabeth Berkely an erection killer but a brilliant satire in which Paul Verhoeven’s genius flew over everyone’s head. To be fair it wasn’t just **lissener**. He was just rather more aggressive/abrasive about his arguments. Other more popular posters with a film education like **Cervaise** agreed with him. Without re-hashing those arguments I could kinda see their point, though in the end I think it was clever speculation more than an absolutely provable argument ( unless Verhoeven has since come clean on the topic ). Doesn’t make _Showgirls_ anymore watchable though ;). Brilliant satire or not, as simple entertainment it was a gigantic, absolutely massive fail. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-fine-line-between-clever-and-stupid-who-would-you-argue-is-clever/762204.md?page=2)