# There's a special place in Hell for you, DaimlerChrysler **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2001, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519 "2001-01-05T04:03:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jcgmoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@jcgmoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcgmoi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/21 "2001-01-05T18:45:29Z")
Read about [Daimler’s latest troubles.](http://news.excite.ca/news/r/001127/17/autos-daimlerchrysler) Sometimes those billionaires come through for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/22 "2001-01-05T19:27:20Z")
I don’t really have a problem with big vehicles per se (from an environmental standpoint,) but I have a big problem with the fuel efficiency of SUV’s. I believe I read recently that a mid-size SUV spews something like 20 times more pollution than a small car per year. No link - I’m dredging my memory here. If gas prices stay where they are, and the economy takes a fairly serious downturn, I don’t see critters like the Suburban and Excursion (19 feet?! WTF?!) sticking around long. I don’t mind high gas prices, because I drive a small car. Fourteen dollars for a tank of gas as opposed to ten? Big whoop. I’ll take it. I recently drove from Savannah, Georgia to Montgomery, Alabama (~400 miles) on one tank of gas (10 gallons), with a little less than a quarter tank to spare. Yeah, baby. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/23 "2001-01-05T20:32:13Z")
Sorry if I spoil things with a few facts. The 1984 Jeep Cherokee was one of the last designs turned out by the failing American Motors Corp., and was inherited by Chrysler when it acquired the bankrupt company from Renault in, IIRC, 1986. The Cherokee Classic, as it is currently called, is more or less unchanged from the original design, except for a switch to Chrylser engines, periodic updating of the interior, and a single, minor exterior facelift around '97. It is perhaps the oldest American-designed vehicle currently in production. In addition to US production, the Cherokee is assembled in Graz, Austria, and is notable for being one of the very few postwar American designs to find a significant market in Europe. There is no question that it’s been a nice little earner for Chrysler, but according to one report I’ve read, 2000 sales were off nearly 20% from '99, and the company has to look ahead. The end of Cherokee production was not a sudden decision; a replacement, called Liberty, has been planned for some time, and a prototype is to be displayed at the North Aerican International auto show in January. The Liberty will be a bit larger and heavier than the current model, and appears to incorporate design themes from the current Wrangler and last year’s Jeepster concept car. There is a rather cruddy, digitally manipulated “spy photo” of the Liberty at: [http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b112900.htm](http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b112900.htm) That is all; please feel free to return to your sniping now. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/24 "2001-01-05T20:55:41Z")
What did you spoil with your facts? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/25 "2001-01-05T21:04:48Z")
That wasn’t a direct reply to your post. I was referring to the rumors of Jee’s demise, which appear to be somewhat exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/26 "2001-01-05T21:06:23Z")
Jeep’s, dadgummit. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/27 "2001-01-05T21:11:25Z")
Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/28 "2001-01-05T21:11:53Z")
Righto. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/29 "2001-01-05T21:15:50Z")
How the hell did that happen? ☹ I suck. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/30 "2001-01-05T22:31:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > I don’t really have a problem with big vehicles per se (from an environmental standpoint,) but I have a big problem with the fuel efficiency of SUV’s. Just SUVs, huh? So you have no problem with pickup trucks, vans, minivans, sports cars, and large automobiles? I guess it’s fashionable to use SUVs as a scapegoat for all automotive pollution nowadays. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Commander Fortune_ > Actually the quality Cherokees varies WILDLY year to year. Some years models are crap with a capital “C”. I’m curious…which years were good/bad? And why? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/31 "2001-01-05T23:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > > I don’t really have a problem with big vehicles per se (from an environmental standpoint,) but I have a big problem with the fuel efficiency of SUV’s. > > Just SUVs, huh? So you have no problem with pickup trucks, vans, minivans, sports cars, and large automobiles? I guess it’s fashionable to use SUVs as a scapegoat for all automotive pollution nowadays. :rolleyes: You know, that rolleyes smiley really gets overused, especially here in the Pit. Now really, Phobos, such sarcasm was not necessary, especially if you’ve followed the whole thread. To wit: No, not just SUV’s. All large, inefficient, gas-guzzling, heavily polluting vehicles. Since the OP is about SUV’s, I used SUV’s as my example. Logical, once you think about it. However, SUV’s currently have the lion’s share of disdain for good reason: they dominate the road. I realize this is anecdotal, yet it is true. SUV sales over the past few years have outstripped any other type of vehicle, which puts them comfortably in the “deserving scapegoat” seat. Sorry if it offends you, but they _are_ inefficient, polluting roadhogs. So are other vehicles, but the difference is that SUV’s are high-profile roadhogs. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/32 "2001-01-05T23:26:47Z")
Ogre, actually, the OP wasn’t talking about SUVs, he was talking about the Jeep line, specifically Jeep Cherokee. It gets between 20-24 mpg which, while it clearly isn’t as good that 60mpg monstrosity Insight, certainly doesn’t fall into the range of “gas guzzler” either. Yes, Jeep is an SUV, but if we’re discussing roadhogs, I think I’ll take issue with the Land Rover first and work my way down. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/33 "2001-01-06T01:51:00Z")
You’re right. I wasn’t specific enough. I do indeed take issue with the major offenders first. The Cherokee is fairly small fry as far as the SUV’s go. My point was that I believe we should be working our way toward more efficient vehicles, not less. I know about the advances in engine and timing technology that make even big engines more efficient, and I know about the gas/electric hybrids, but I still believe that vehicles like the Land Rover, Suburban, and Excursion are just way beyond the pale. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/34 "2001-01-09T19:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > You know, that rolleyes smiley really gets overused, especially here in the Pit. Now really, Phobos, such sarcasm was not necessary, especially if you’ve followed the whole thread. To wit: > > No, not just SUV’s. All large, inefficient, gas-guzzling, heavily polluting vehicles. Since the OP is about SUV’s, I used SUV’s as my example. Logical, once you think about it. However, SUV’s currently have the lion’s share of disdain for good reason: they dominate the road. I realize this is anecdotal, yet it is true. SUV sales over the past few years have outstripped any other type of vehicle, which puts them comfortably in the “deserving scapegoat” seat. > > Sorry if it offends you, but they _are_ inefficient, polluting roadhogs. So are other vehicles, but the difference is that SUV’s are high-profile roadhogs. \*\* You’ll be glad to know that I could count the number of times that I’ve used the ROLLEYES icon on one hand. Sorry for the sarcasm, but this is the Pit, right?. Anyway, _I agree with many of your points_, but I just get irritated when all the blame is put on SUVs. Especially Jeeps, which as **Enderw24** pointed out, are not as big a problem as other monster SUVs. The Grand Cherokee may be close to being a “monster” but the Cherokee Sport is small. Anyway, the ROLLEYES was not directed at you as much as it was at the automatic anti-SUV mindset which tends to ignore all the other problematic vehicles. Many people who have SUVs could do fine with smaller cars, but SUVs do have valid uses too (toting lots o’ crap around, driving thru snow, off-road driving, etc.). Some people need bigger cars. But like you imply, many don’t. And BTW, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, [http://www.ucsusa.org/](http://www.ucsusa.org/) > [@](#): > > …the average truck (SUV) on the road today emits 47 percent more smog-forming exhaust and 43 percent more global warming pollution than the average car. which is far less than what you said… > [@](#): > > - by Ogre\* > mid-size SUV spews something like 20 times more pollution than a small car per year Anyway, of all the SUVs on the road, I’d rather see the monsters go extinct before the Jeeps. I’d also rather see R&D $$ go into improving fuel efficiency instead of creating new body types. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/35 "2001-01-09T21:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*C’mon people, wake up! They’re not cancelling a part of the Jeep line because of a business decision. They’re doing it because Jeeps kicked their wussy German asses back in WWII. It’s retribution people. It’s the first step towards another world domination attempt. \*\* AUBURN HILLS, MICHIGAN(AP) Daimler-Chrysler today announced that the discontinued Jeep Cherokee line would now be replaced with a new line, the Jeep Panzer. “Der Panzer ist un great vehicle,” said spokesman Claus von Himmler. “It gets 40 kilometers fur der gallon and can reach ze speeds of 180 kilometres und hour, und faster ven you are invading Poland.” von Himmler indicated that the first run of Jeep Panzers would be available in any colour “as long as zey are camouflage grey und green.” Literature handed out at the premiere also indicated the new vehicle would be available in a special glossy black color, “Iron Cross.” In a spectacular, star-studded unveiling before 10,000 guests, media, and industry representatives, celebrity pitchman Arnold Schwartzenegger drove a new Jeep Panzer across anti-tank ditches, through four-inch trees, and over a line of old American Motors Gremlins. The new Jeep’s bulky, heavily armored styling and 12-inch tracks have concerned some industry analysts who feel American buyers would prefer vehicles that travel on wheels and don’t weigh forty tons. Responded von Himmler, “Our market studies show ze American public vants a vehicle zat can be used fur der family, fur der recreational schtuff, und for meting out special treatment to ze undesirables.” Added von Himmler, “Der Panzer is gut on der highways, in der ciy, und anywhere else in der Fatherland. A vehicle like this needs Lebensraum!” However, NHTSA spokeman John Roberts had some misgivings. “We’re still conducting roll and impact tests,” he said in a prepared statement, “but the Department has considerable misgivings about the inclusion of an 88-millimetre cannon and a coaxial machine gun on Daimler-Chrysler’s new offering.” Asked about the NHTSA comments, von Himmler replied, “Achtung, der schweinhunds! Der gun is an option!” American buyers are excited about the new Jeep’s unveiling. Said wild-eyed onlooker Earl S. Colborne, “Those fuckers down at the post office are in for it now!” ---
**Author:** ![Enos\_Strate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/aca169/32.png) [@Enos\_Strate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enos_Strate)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/36 "2001-01-09T23:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phobos \* > And BTW, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, [http://www.ucsusa.org/](http://www.ucsusa.org/) > > > [@](#): > > > > …the average truck (SUV) on the road today emits 47 percent more smog-forming exhaust and 43 percent more global warming pollution than the **average** car. > > which is far less than what you said… > > > [@](#): > > > > - by Ogre\* > > mid-size SUV spews something like 20 times more pollution than a **small** car per year Bolding mine. Not trying to nitpick, but it looks like you are comparing different statistics. I looked briefly at the site you reference, but didn’t see what constitutes an average car (midsize, full size, economy, etc.) “20 times the pollution of a small car” sounds like hyperbole to me, but I’m curious as to how a mid size suv would stack up against a Toyota Echo or another tiny car pollution wise. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/37 "2001-01-09T23:01:13Z")
Great sutff, Rick 😃 I thought you Jeep lovers might like this: due to some weird-ass copyright situation, DaimlerChrysler will not be allowed to name the “Liberty” as such in Europe. You’d say an American company would have _every_ right to call things “Liberty” in Europe. Maybe it’s the German angle that messes things up 😉 Anyway, this means that the Jeep Liberty will be introduced in Europe as… the Jeep Cherokee. It’s just a name, lads. And the Grand Cherokee will still be produced, right? ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/38 "2001-01-09T23:28:58Z")
Yeah, they’re still making the Grand Cherokee. Problem is, the Grand Cherokees look more and more like minivans every year. German design, I guess. 😃 At least they haven’t messed with the Wrangler. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/39 "2001-01-10T00:17:33Z")
> [@](#): > > the Grand Cherokees look more and more like minivans every year. That’s why I didn’t buy a Grand Cherokee in 1999. It didn’t look like a Jeep. I looked at the Cherokee Sport and out of all of the SUVs on the market, the Cherokee _ **looks like a Jeep** _!!! So I bought it. I’m a big fan of Jeeps. I used to own a Willy’s CJ-2A. Jeep has changed hands many times. Willy’s “invented” it, Ford stole it (because the government didn’t think Willy’s had the capacity for wartime production), Kaiser bought it, AMC bought it, Renault helped AMC pay for it, Chrysler bought it, and now Daimler has bought Chrysler and therefore Jeep. Models, like the owners, have come and gone and I’m sad to see the venerable Cherokee go. I’ve brought my Cherokee home covered with mud, and I’ve commuted in it with a fresh wash. It’s still a viable Jeep, and I think it would be a mistake to replace it. Look out on the roads. When you compare older SUVs, I think you’ll find the majority of them are Cherokees. Still running. Still a Jeep. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519/40 "2001-02-15T17:07:36Z")
In case anyone is interested, [there is an online petition](http://www.petitiononline.com/hds2/petition.html) aimed at telling DaimlerChrysler how Jeepers feel about their changing of the Jeep line. It’s mostly about the change to independent front suspension, but I think the message is clear. (I can’t get to the petition right now, but the thread it’s in is at [http://jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/001673.html](http://jeepsunlimited.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/001673.html) ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-special-place-in-hell-for-you-daimlerchrysler/48519.md?page=3)