# "There's a Wire Above Manhattan That You've Probably Never Noticed" - Fascinating **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 8, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667 "2017-03-08T02:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/21 "2017-03-08T05:56:51Z")
> [@SantaMan](#): > > You might want to look up > [“fence around the Torah”](http://ranktheeffort.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-fence-around-torah.html) > "One of the important principles of midrashic interpretation was the idea of “building a fence around the Torah.” In order to ensure that the Torah would be obeyed, it was necessary to keep behavior at a safe distance so it would not accidentally veer into prohibited territory. For example, the Torah prohibits boiling a calf in its mother’s milk. The halakhic interpretation is that meat and dairy may not be prepared or eaten together. " That’s the point of this thread. The Torah says _“Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”_ But Jews in many places developed a workaround that lets them travel miles from home. How did Jews decide one law from Exodus could be obeyed so loosely and another law from Exodus had to be obeyed so strictly? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/22 "2017-03-08T08:59:23Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’ve been wondering: How are the super-observant Jews generally regarded by the Jewish community as a whole? Are they seen as more morally upstanding than their less committed brethren? Or are they seen as a little nuts? Or is it more like, “Wow, that guy _really_ likes being Jewish.” Your implication is that less observant Jews are less “morally upstanding” or don’t _really_ like being Jewish. Actually, “a little nuts” is closer to the truth. I was raised Reform Jewish, and we thought of them as rather extreme and fanatical, and considering themselves “holier than God”. All the archaic rules and regulations and loopholes just seemed rather silly and old-fashioned to us. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/23 "2017-03-08T09:12:42Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > It’s actually really silly some of the hoops some Orthodox Jews jump through to adhere to the letter of the law but throw away the spirit. So look at what Muslims do to operate a financial system but not violate the Koran law by charging ‘interest’. Equally loopholey. Most religions have such silliness. It’s really hard to live in a real world of changing science & technology while trying to follow the strictures of some ancient holy book. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/24 "2017-03-08T10:30:04Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > So look at what Muslims do to operate a financial system but not violate the Koran law by charging ‘interest’. Equally loopholey. Or Catholics declaring that capybara are fish. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/25 "2017-03-08T10:43:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Yeah, I’m sure God is fooled. > > One of the more ridiculous religious workarounds I’m aware of. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I asked this question a while back. The answer seems to boil down to “God is pleased when his people find ways to outsmart him.” > > I didn’t know about the mega eruv, though. As far as I understand it (I’m not Jewish, but I’ve been confused enough to assume things, then later, ask about them before) - it’s not about fooling God, or outsmarting laws - it’s about _not trying to second-guess the mind of God_ - that is, not asking why God made this law, and what he might also consider part of it, but rather, trying to observe the laws as best as humanly possible. Apparently it’s a thing that people coming from a Christian-influenced background (even if not observant Christians themselves) have problems grasping. (again, in my understanding, which could be flawed) Jewish laws aren’t about people going to hell for disobeying; they are about doing the things God said to do, because he said so and (within the belief system) is assumed to have his own reasons for asking, which mortal humans may not understand, or necessarily even question. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/26 "2017-03-08T11:30:36Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But couldn’t a good Rabbi argue that the fire’s already lit at the power station (or not, if it’s nuclear, wind, solar or hydroelectric), and that the electricity is merely a way to get the energy from there to here? I mean, equating electricity with fire is a bit odd. The fire happens when a switch closes a circuit. The spark that occurs in the instant before the contacts meet is the creation of fire. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/27 "2017-03-08T11:38:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Or Catholics declaring that capybara are fish. Lenten dietary restrictions are not a Biblical rule. Catholics created them as a discipline to be followed to observe Lent. They are not the result of trying to conform to any Bible rule. That said, the capybara is both hairy and scaly and spends more of its time in the water than on land. Lacking a sophisticated taxonomic system at the time, why wouldn’t it be thought to be more like fish than cow? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/28 "2017-03-08T11:50:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Lacking a sophisticated taxonomic system at the time, why wouldn’t it be thought to be more like fish than cow? The four legs? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/29 "2017-03-08T12:38:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That said, the capybara is both hairy and scaly and spends more of its time in the water than on land. Lacking a sophisticated taxonomic system at the time, why wouldn’t it be thought to be more like fish than cow? [Cow](http://beef.unl.edu/documents/4178167/4759765/Cow-Calf-Confinement-Feedlot-Research-300w.jpg/728eb818-d8d4-4d34-9b7e-518b67fbcecc/Cow-Calf-Confinement-Feedlot-Research-300w.jpg) [Capybara](http://www.zooborns.com/.a/6a010535647bf3970b01a3fd3d706c970b-800wi) [Fish](https://c402277.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/photos/1264/images/story_full_width/overfishing-impacts-08022012-XL_279104.jpg?1345541200) Seriously? Every now and again you might like to exercise just a little more realism and less desperate fanwanking when it comes to Catholicism. Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/30 "2017-03-08T12:42:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That said, the capybara is both hairy and scaly and spends more of its time in the water than on land. Lacking a sophisticated taxonomic system at the time, why wouldn’t it be thought to be more like fish than cow? Or, as I recently discovered, there’s a tradition in [Downriver (Detroit area)](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/01/us/wyandotte-journal-where-the-muskrat-is-a-delicacy-for-lent.html) classifying muskrat as fish! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/31 "2017-03-08T12:52:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That said, the capybara is both hairy and scaly… Scaly? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/32 "2017-03-08T12:52:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s the point of this thread. The Torah says _“Remain each of you in his place; let no one go out of his place on the seventh day.”_ But Jews in many places developed a workaround that lets them travel miles from home. How did Jews decide one law from Exodus could be obeyed so loosely and another law from Exodus had to be obeyed so strictly? By reasoning from what they understood to be first principles. The verse you quote is from Exodus, in which the Jews are camped between between Elim and Sinai, and Moses says that no one go forth to gather manna on the Sabbath: > [@](#): > > And it came to pass, that on yom hashishi they gathered twice as much lechem, two omers for one man; and all the nesi’im of the Edah came and told Moshe. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which Hashem hath said, Tomorrow is a Shabbaton (day of rest), Shabbos Kodesh unto Hashem; bake that which ye will bake today, and boil that ye will boil; and that which remaineth over lay up for you for mishmeret (for keeping) until boker. 24 And they laid it up, saving it until boker, as Moshe commanded; and it did not stink, neither was there any infestation therein. 25 And Moshe said, Eat that today; for today is a Shabbos unto Hashem; today ye shall not find it in the sadeh. 26 Sheshet yamim ye shall gather it; but on the yom hashevi’i, which is Shabbos, in it there shall be none. > > 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some from HaAm on the yom hashevi’i to gather, and they found none. 28 And Hashem said unto Moshe, How long refuse ye to be shomer over My mitzvot and My torot? 29 See, that Hashem hath given you the Shabbos, therefore He giveth you on yom hashishi lechem for two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out from his place on yom hashevi’i. 30 So HaAm rested on yom hashevi’i. So what is the mitzvah? The rabbis reasoned that they were enjoined from leaving the encampment. So in some respects, does the prohibition depend upon the size of the encampment? Yes. Alone in the wilderness, the rabbis reasoned that a Jew can permissibly walk on foot 2,000 cubits from where he was when the Sabbath started. That’s a relatively small area when imagining the Jewish encampment Moses was speaking to. But if you’re in a bigger encampment, then it makes sense that you can walk on foot within that encampment, even if it’s bigger, since the idea was not to wander far away from your encampment. So a city boundary is fine to walk about – as long as you stay within the city boundaries, which are determined by an imaginary rectangle that encloses all buildings that are used for dwellings. Not that this isn’t the only purpose of an eruv. Jews may walk about on the Sabbath consistent with the rules above; I explain these boundary rules only to address the Exodus quote. But an eruv also allows the carrying of objects between what would otherwise be separate domains, and that would be work, also forbidden on the Sabbath. Now, you ask why there is a fence around some commandments and not others – why is the prohibition against mixing meat and diary so important that dishes are kept separate, even when today it’s virtually impossible that the flesh of a cow that’s eaten would come into contact with the milk of its mother, when the two come from farming and dairy operations miles apart, and yet a wire can be considered a shared wall? The general answer is . . . . reasoning from what they understood to be first principles. When Moses came down from Sinai, he bore the complete Law. Committed to writing was the part of it we know as the Pentatuech, the Books of Moses. But there was also an Oral Law, which G-d had vouchsafed to Moses to understand how the principles outlined in the Written Law were to be applied. The Oral Law was eventually codified as the Mishnah, in the third century CE. Of course, the principles of the Mishnah were then the subject of debate, commentary, analysis as the result of a changing world, and that commentary and analysis was captured in the sixth century as the Gemorah. So the body of application of Jewish Law became known as the Talmud, and is the basis for additional commentary, reasoning and analysis by future rabbis. This current body of work is called the Responsa, and continues to this day. The early rabbis noticed that the prohibition against cooking the flesh of the kid in the milk of its mother appears not once, or even twice, but three separate times: Exodus 23:19, Exodus 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21 all forbid the practice. So the rabbis reasoned that G-d’s repetition elevates this injunction as something especially important to observe. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/33 "2017-03-08T12:54:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Scaly? Strike that – I was inexplicably thinking of aardvarks when I wrote that, conflating the scaly skin with the swimming capys. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/34 "2017-03-08T12:57:57Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > [Cow](http://beef.unl.edu/documents/4178167/4759765/Cow-Calf-Confinement-Feedlot-Research-300w.jpg/728eb818-d8d4-4d34-9b7e-518b67fbcecc/Cow-Calf-Confinement-Feedlot-Research-300w.jpg) > > [Capybara](http://www.zooborns.com/.a/6a010535647bf3970b01a3fd3d706c970b-800wi) > > [Fish](https://c402277.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/photos/1264/images/story_full_width/overfishing-impacts-08022012-XL_279104.jpg?1345541200) > > Seriously? Every now and again you might like to exercise just a little more realism and less desperate fanwanking when it comes to Catholicism. Just a suggestion. Fair point, but it also focuses myopically on a off-hand observation. I withdraw the comment, but my main point remains: Lent is not a Biblical injunction. The Lenten observance can be created, changed, or eliminated by the Church with no contradictions of any heavenly truths. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/35 "2017-03-08T13:17:16Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Clearly it would be easier if you just found a co-operative Gentile with a fence around his land, and announced that his fence defined the eruv, with his land being the _outside_. And that gentile’s name is Wonko the Sane. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/36 "2017-03-08T13:39:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > capys. Capybaras find that label offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/37 "2017-03-08T13:53:20Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Capybaras find that label offensive. I’m a capyist. They all look alike to me. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/38 "2017-03-08T14:04:37Z")
Who paid for the wire and its maintenance? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/39 "2017-03-08T14:10:17Z")
^ From the article the OP linked to: > [@](#): > > Along with everything else in New York City, the eruv isn’t cheap. It costs a group of Orthodox synagogues $100,000 a year to maintain the wires, which are inspected by a rabbi every Thursday before dawn to confirm they are all still attached. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667/40 "2017-03-08T14:10:20Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The four legs? Plus the tits. And the breathing of air. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-a-wire-above-manhattan-that-youve-probably-never-noticed-fascinating/781667.md?page=3)