# There's no Pit thread on the Romney bullying story yet, so . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582 "2012-05-11T02:30:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/61 "2012-05-11T05:21:17Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Meh, doesn’t really change my opinion of the man, I always thought he was a bit of an asshole and wouldn’t even consider voting for him. What I do find amusing is the various right wing pundits and personalities getting all up in arms about how this was decades ago and he is a changed man. These are the same people who thought Bill Ayers was such a big deal and stood behind the swiftboating. The right invented these politics of destruction and they are surprised when it is used against their candidates? > > Fucking par for the course. Yeah, I wish we could get all the self-serving hypocrites out of politics. It’d be disruptive though trying to fill every elected office in the land on short notice.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/62 "2012-05-11T05:26:43Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > How many gay-bashings did you commit? Because if Romney smoked some dope or stole the other school’s mascot or mooned someone, I wouldn’t care in the slightest. But he did, in fact, conspire with his friends to commit a crime that I consider extremely serious. > > I have no familiarity with 60s-era state law in Michigan but I’m pretty sure under common law what he did was battery, and it’s in a context that sounds disturbing. He attacked a kid for seeming to be gay (or seeming to be whatever his crew wants to rationalize this to be, but it boils down to seeming to be gay). That kind of thing might have been socially acceptable at the time but it was not okay and I have no trouble imagining how terrifying it was to his victim, even if the only actual physical damage was to his hair. Being physically attacked and held down by five people would have been terrifying to me. So, like, whatever insults you want to throw my way for feeling the way I do, I’m on the side of his victim. And whatever rationalization anyone puts forward for what Mitt did, what he did was still a major crime, at least at common law, and in my opinion, declaring certain behaviors to be crimes is pretty much the clearest indication there is that these behaviors are not normal activities, and they’re outside the realm of what we consider acceptable. It’s definitely not within the acceptable bounds of stupid shit teenagers can be wholesale excused for doing. Especially since he’s shown no remorse. > > So pardon me, but I am pretty clear on my opinion of a youthful gay-bashing and on my opinion of anyone who thinks that’s something we should all politely ignore. It’s a minor misdemeanor that would almost certainly result in absolutely no jail time. People other than Mitt Romney commit minor infractions like this all the time and are almost never prosecuted. The reason for that is at common law a lot of things that most people would view as minor can qualify as assault or battery. Things like altercations in schools are almost never treated as crimes, same as altercations in college football games. Most likely George Bush and Barack Obama would have done some actual time in jail if they had been caught when they were coke users. A police officer could have walked in on what Romney was doing to this kid and I guarantee an arrest wouldn’t have even happened. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/63 "2012-05-11T05:35:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A police officer could have walked in on what Romney was doing to this kid and I guarantee an arrest wouldn’t have even happened. Oh, shit, I didn’t know you \*guaranteed \*it. Why the fuck are we still talking about it? Back off guys, Martin Hyde, says this is nothing. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/64 "2012-05-11T05:35:56Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s a minor misdemeanor that would almost certainly result in absolutely no jail time. People other than Mitt Romney commit minor infractions like this all the time and are almost never prosecuted. The reason for that is at common law a lot of things that most people would view as minor can qualify as assault or battery. Things like altercations in schools are almost never treated as crimes, same as altercations in college football games. Most likely George Bush and Barack Obama would have done some actual time in jail if they had been caught when they were coke users. A police officer could have walked in on what Romney was doing to this kid and I guarantee an arrest wouldn’t have even happened. No offense, but it’s gotten to be pretty obvious why you are so staunchly angry whenever anyone takes personality into account. Why do you run along and let the grownups talk? This is a grownup crime and the perpetrator – no matter how much you try to argue otherwise – was legally a grownup when he did it. Meaning that, as a society, we agreed to hold people his age accountable for their actions. Even if there are lots of people like you desperately trying to shield them from accountability. I will agree on one point: I agree wholeheartedly that back in 1965 gay-bashing pretty much never resulted in jail time. So, in fact, I concede your factual point about what a cop would have done if one had shown up. The cops would have been fine with it, without a doubt. But it’s now 2012 and we are all entitled to judge Mitt Romney based on his life. Until you can come up with an actual reason to exonerate him, you’re just wasting everyone’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/65 "2012-05-11T05:37:13Z")
I believe it was mentioned early on in the thread (but has been lost in the personal sniping as to who is the dumberest one here), is that this incident speaks to Romney’s character in that we can see how he has handled this incident since he has become an adult. The friends that he recruited to help him pin his fellow student down and forcibly cut his hair? The regret their actions. It seems that some of them actually sought out the victim and apologized. They felt remorse. These guys were involved yes. And they showed themselves to have grown in to men of character. Romney? He brushed it aside and didn’t give it a moments thought. When confronted with the facts of what he did, he gave the lamest excuse in the book; “I can’t remember”. Sure we all did stupid stuff as kids. But how we handle that stuff later in our lives helps to define the sort of people we have become. Romney has shown that he has simply become someone who “forgets” rather than someone who is introspective and tries to improve and become a better man. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/66 "2012-05-11T05:44:20Z")
Okay, let’s all be clear on the facts, though: Mitt doesn’t remember the incident, but he totally does remember that he never thought the guy was gay. I just want to make sure all the facts are considered in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/67 "2012-05-11T05:52:46Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Okay, let’s all be clear on the facts, though: Mitt doesn’t remember the incident, but he totally does remember that he never thought the guy was gay. Well, be fair, that only means he remembers the person the story was about. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/68 "2012-05-11T05:54:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, be fair, that only means he remembers the person the story was about. Right. He totally remembers him, and totally remembers how much time he spent not thinking the kid was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/69 "2012-05-11T05:58:05Z")
I don’t think he ever said he remembers the incident at all, or the person involved. Rather, he seems to be claiming the very concept of someone being gay was unknown to him until later, so it would be impossible for it to have affected his actions in this incident, which he in no way remembers happening. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/70 "2012-05-11T06:11:04Z")
Poor Newt . . . Must be brooding, now . . . “God, the **one** possible story that could have made me look like a nice guy next to Mitt . . . I coulda done something with **that**. . . The news always breaks too late . . .” ☹ ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/71 "2012-05-11T06:12:01Z")
What he did as a teenager is irrelevant. His recent remarks could have come from any politician. If you didn’t like him before, you still don’t. If you did like him before, you must be the same kind of narcisisstic sociopath that he is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/72 "2012-05-11T06:12:29Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > Rather, he seems to be claiming the very concept of someone being gay was unknown to him until later . . . Well, of course not. Boarding-school students live such sheltered lives . . . they never would have **heard** of such a thing . . . ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/73 "2012-05-11T06:15:05Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > I don’t think he ever said he remembers the incident at all, or the person involved. Rather, he seems to be claiming the very concept of someone being gay was unknown to him until later, so it would be impossible for it to have affected his actions in this incident, which he in no way remembers happening. Yes, I believe that’s his point, but it’s also absurd and ridiculous, as those of us whose parents are that age can attest. (Or I guess those of us who are that age, if they’re on the internet.) ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/74 "2012-05-11T06:26:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Then you’re an idiot, end of discussion. The last person to call so many people idiots in one thread was **Starving Artist**. On a more serious note: you keep asserting that this kind of behavior in high school is not indicative of character as an adult. Why do you believe that, and do you have any support for your opinion other than anecdotes? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/75 "2012-05-11T06:26:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s 100% meaningless because it says nothing about Romney as an adult or about how he would be President. > > If everyone on the Straight Dope has nothing they’re deeply ashamed of, and has never done anything to another person they truly regret while in junior through High School then hats off to you–I can’t say that however and I’d say 95-99% of my friends couldn’t say that either. > > No one should think those things have shit to do with you as an adult, you’re a developing adult at that point. When you’re a 65 year old man who has lived a long life with lots of things in it since High School I see nothing other than idiocy that could lead someone to think this is a genuine issue speaking to Romney’s character, his aptitude or etc. There’s a fucking Mt. Olympus of material out there to use to make an argument Romney is an aloof asshole and would make a bad President **that happened since the invention of the cell phone** , those things might actually matter. (I wouldn’t agree with all of them, I’m just saying there is legit stuff out there you could argue that way.) The only legitimate reason to go back this far is, like people have said, it plays into the politics of personality and likability (aka the politics of voters-are-dumber-than-bricks.) Your exact words, which I quoted, were: “It was meaningless in its time.” At the time that Romney committed his assault, he caused terror and distress to a much younger classmate. The distress that Romney caused was meaningful at the time … to the victim. The fact that Romney got away with assault because his father had pull doesn’t make the victim’s suffering meaningless. It’s that empathy thing. I know it’s a problem for you Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/76 "2012-05-11T06:32:14Z")
I guess what bothers me the most now is his current attitude. If he would just say “Hey-I was a bit of a jerk in High School. I don’t remember details but I know I probably hurt some people and I regret it” I would have no problem with his character. It’s the fact that he claims that his High School activities show that he is a fun guy with a great sense of humor that bothers me. The right keep trying to compare this to Obama’s drug use in High School but at least Obama admits that he was wasting his life at that time and that he realized it and made a change. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/77 "2012-05-11T06:37:00Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > A police officer could have walked in on what Romney was doing to this kid and I guarantee an arrest wouldn’t have even happened. I can guarantee that too: not only was he a student at a prestigious school, but he was also the son of the state governor at the time. If your hypothetical police officer had found the 18-year-old Barack Obama doing something similar at his school, can you be so sure that there would have been no arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/78 "2012-05-11T06:57:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In the 1960s he would not have been punished for it, no jurisdiction in the country would have arrested him for it, and in most schools he would probably have received no in-school punishment. This didn’t happen in the year 2012, the societal (and legal / school) response to bullying was immeasurably different back then. Well then, ignorance fought. During the 1960s, teaming up 3+ high school seniors against one junior was considered a fair fight. And the blind were considered fair game for ridicule. Someone else’s poor eyesight is always good for a laugh. Ah well, different time, different place: who am I to judge? As for punishment, I’ll quote an eyewitness to the event: “It happened very quickly, and to this day it troubles me,” said Buford, the school’s wrestling champion, who said he joined Romney in restraining Lauber. Buford subsequently apologized to Lauber, who was “terrified,” he said. “What a senseless, stupid, idiotic thing to do.” “It was a hack job,” recalled Maxwell, a childhood friend of Romney who was in the dorm room when the incident occurred. “It was vicious.” “He was just easy pickin’s,” said Friedemann, then the student prefect, or student authority leader of Stevens Hall, expressing remorse about his failure to stop it. The incident transpired in a flash, and Friedemann said Romney then led his cheering schoolmates back to his bay-windowed room in Stevens Hall. Friedemann, guilt ridden, made a point of not talking about it with his friend and waited to see what form of discipline would befall Romney at the famously strict institution. Nothing happened. It sounds like Romney’s behavior escaped notice, not that there weren’t rules about that sort of thing. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’ve actually observed kids that get bullied are more likely to become serial killers so we should really be worried about the kids who didn’t bully other kids. How many serial killers have you known? Note to self: don’t eat dinner at Martin’s house. And don’t mention, “Excluded middle”. Gotta be polite. > [@John Mace](#): > > As much as it might pain some of you to realize, this is actually the kind of thing that makes Romney seem more like a real person. Most of us did stupid shit when were teenagers. Romney’s not the squeaky clean Mormon boy that everyone thought he was. Yeah, I always thought he was kind of a dweeb. I didn’t realize he was a vicious little shit. > [@John Mace](#): > > The story here, to the extent that there is one, is that Romney was a rich kid at a boarding school. The rest of us who grew up in those years had to harass kids in public school. “Heck at my school, nobody even knew what scissors looked like.” ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/79 "2012-05-11T07:04:29Z")
Ok **Martin Hyde** , your calls of idiocy got me interested in this whole thing, I decided to do some investigation into research on people that bully, etc. 1. Bullying appears to have a genetic component based on twin studies 2. Bullying appears to be related to impulse control problems 3. One study found 25% of people that bullied at 14 continued to bully at 32 I found this which studied teenage bullies: [http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/fcoolidg/pdfs/PersonalityBullying.pdf](http://www.uccs.edu/~faculty/fcoolidg/pdfs/PersonalityBullying.pdf) Here is a quote: “The results of the present investigation point to the early development (by the beginning of middle school) of a constellation of personality disordered traits and neuropsychological dys-function in children and adolescents who bully other children. Interestingly, estimates from twin and adoption studies show that conduct disorder and ADHD have a strong genetic component…” Maybe these are good qualities in a president, and maybe they aren’t - not sure. But your claim of “idiots” is a pretty emotional reaction to the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582/80 "2012-05-11T07:27:25Z")
Ok, we’re here to fight ignorance, so… the study doesn’t really apply to Romney. This study involved 41 public middle school students (22 males, 19 females; mean age ¼ 12.6 years, SD¼ 0.9 years, age range 11–15 years; 11 sixth-graders, 18 seventh-graders, 12 eighth-graders; 15 Whites, 16 Blacks, 7 Hispanics, 3 American Indians) who were identified by school counselors as having three or more office referrals from administrators or teachers in a school year. The referrals were a result of any of the following behaviors: name calling, fighting, relentless picking on other students, defiance toward teachers, or getting kicked out of an in-school suspension class. These students constituted the bully group. Romney wasn’t a rowdy kid with impulse-control problems. Romney was a smart guy who bullied in groups and stayed below the school’s radar. He was a reasonably popular little prick, not a loser. All that said: It was found that bullying behavior was associated more with… conduct disorder, oppositional defiant disorder, attention- deficit /hyperactivity disorder… histrionic, paranoid…neuro-psychological dysfunction and executive functional deficits. The perfect Republican! An implication of these findings is that traditional shorter term psychotherapeutic interventions for bullying behavior may be of limited value given the complex nature of the associated psychopathology. I agree. Long term treatment is necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-no-pit-thread-on-the-romney-bullying-story-yet-so/621582.md?page=5)