There's no such thing as a Free Health Care

[Candyman74]

“Free health care” is a bit of a straw man isn’t it? Nobody thinks it’s free except for imaginary people in the OP’s head who apparently don’t understand that public services are paid for by taxes. I’ve never met such a person, however - unless he’s referring to kindergarten kids?

It’s a bit of colloquial terminology, not an statement of belief. I’m surprised that the OP doesn’t understand these basic social concepts. We use colloquial terminology all the time; it’s a type of casual linguistic shorthand meant to convey a more complex concept without going into detail. Plus it’s usually referred to as “universal”, not “free”.

What a bizarre thread.

[Simplicio]

@Candyman74

It’s a bit of colloquial terminology, not an statement of belief.

I’m not sure it’s even being used colloquially. The OP hasn’t come back to give us any examples of the phenomenon, anyways. I’ve heard “free healthcare” in respect to European single payer plans, but I don’t think I’ve heard it used to refer to the current US proposal.

In general, I wish people wouldn’t start threads saying “people shouldn’t say/do X” without at least one example of someone saying/doing X.

[lalenin]

@cricetus

I’m pro public option, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “free health care.” This seems connected to the “big pot of money somewhere” theory of how government works.

Whenever you ask for something, the money comes from other people. And yes, I know there’s a bunch of rich people who we can bleed for everything, but that still doesn’t make it “free.” It’s not free. It costs money, and the government will have to collect that money from other people.

This isn’t a liberal or conservative idea. It’s just a fact. And we can have more productive conversations about things if we use facts.

I have this discussion all the time when people mention ‘free health care and education’ in Cuba. No, there is no ‘free health care and education’ in Cuba. The government, the only employer, pays miserable wages of 15-20$ a month and uses the difference between production and salaries to subsidize a number of things, among them health care and education.

[Candyman74]

@lalenin

I have this discussion all the time when people mention ‘free health care and education’ in Cuba. No, there is no ‘free health care and education’ in Cuba. The government, the only employer, pays miserable wages of 15-20$ a month and uses the difference between production and salaries to subsidize a number of things, among them health care and education.

Ah, pendantry. Truly a social lubricant! I bet you’re a riot at parties!

I’m sure they don’t believe it’s “free” and that they all know what each other is talking about, even if you don’t. Actually, I’m sure you know what they mean, too.

If these people you are talking to (incidentally, I’ve never heard anyone talking about free healthcare in Cuba - you must run in very dfferent circles to me! common occurence for you?) *really *believe it’s free, then they have far greater problems than you can solve for them. Just leave 'em to it.

[Markxxx]

@cricetus

I’m pro public option, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “free health care.”

You’re correct, but you’re not really getting the point.

There IS no such thing as free health care.

There is no such thing as a free education for the children in America.

There is no such thing as free fire protection if your house is on fire.

There is no such thing as free police protection if a person tries to mug you.

So???

Everyday I have to pay the salaries of police who, catch drunk drivers, who rob people, who do horrible things. If everyone just behaved, like they should be doing anyway, I wouldn’t have to pay the police.

If people let their house catch on fire WHY SHOULD MY TAX DOLLARS go to having a fire company put the fire out. Let each person who owns a house hire a seperate fire company to come over and put out the fire. Why should I pay 'cause you’re too stupid to realize you can’t put 12 appliances into one outlet.

I don’t have kids, why should I pay for my neighbor’s kids to get educated. If they can’t afford the cost of educating their kids then they shouldn’t have them.

OK you can all see where I’m going with this. I’m pushing to make a point.

At one time Educatation for children, fire protection, and such were NOT public policy. You had to pay for them. If you were poor and your kids better have the get up and go to educate themselves. If you couldn’t afford a fire company, you hoped your house was safe. YES at one time there were many companies in cities and each company only went to fires of places that were their clients.

But over the years people have decided that fires, police, and education are should not be a matter of who can afford to pay for them but a matter of public policy.

You have to decide for yourself, should healthcare for Americans be a matter of public policy, like fire protection and police protection or should it be only to those who plan for it?

This really isn’t a new debate, over the years Americans have always debated about taking things from one area for another.

For instance, the TVA, or should Southern California be able to take water from the North as well as from the Colorado River. Should urban dwellers in NYC pay for airports in Wyoming?

It’s just a different twist on an age old question. What things in America should be public policy?

[gonzomax]

@cricetus

I’m pro public option, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “free health care.” This seems connected to the “big pot of money somewhere” theory of how government works.

Whenever you ask for something, the money comes from other people. And yes, I know there’s a bunch of rich people who we can bleed for everything, but that still doesn’t make it “free.” It’s not free. It costs money, and the government will have to collect that money from other people.

This isn’t a liberal or conservative idea. It’s just a fact. And we can have more productive conversations about things if we use facts.

If you are interested in facts ,stop the bleeding of the rich mantra.
Since the 70s .70 % of the wealth gain went to the top 7 percent
The top 1 percent received 38 % of the 1.34 billion in tax cuts
The average worker has shrunk the last couple decades while CEO pay went up 10 fold.

IMPACT Press: Article: "Across the Great Divide: The Wealth Gap" --...

Then we can have a more productive discussion.

[SenorBeef]

I’ve always thought that if you made everyone who ate meat go to a slaughterhouse, there’d be a substantial increase in the number of vegetarians. Why? It’s not because they’d be doing anything different to continue eating meat just like they had before. But now they’d have to be faced with the costs.

Most people are weak minded. They don’t consider the implications of their actions. They don’t think that the meat on their plate comes from a cow being raised in a building, some guy hitting a cow in the head with a piston, and then chopping it up. So for them, meat may as well come from the magical meat fairy.

Similarly, “free health care” sounds great. Wouldn’t it be great if everyone had health care and cars and ice cream and ponies for free?! Sure! People can mentally detach the benefit from the cost, especially if they aren’t among the group that’s seeing the cost affect them the most.

(I’m not a vegetarian, nor do I necesarily think public health care is a bad idea - I’m merely trying to make a comparison of the mentality brought up by the OP.)

[tnetennba]

I support public health care, so there’s no lesson you need to teach me. I just think the word “free” should be dropped. As a liberal, I want my fellow liberals to sound smart. I also want the conversations to be smarter.

[tnetennba]

@gonzomax

If you are interested in facts ,stop the bleeding of the rich mantra.
Since the 70s .70 % of the wealth gain went to the top 7 percent
The top 1 percent received 38 % of the 1.34 billion in tax cuts
The average worker has shrunk the last couple decades while CEO pay went up 10 fold.
IMPACT Press: Article: "Across the Great Divide: The Wealth Gap" -- Aug.-Sept. '01
Then we can have a more productive discussion.

I have conversations all the time where people talk about raising taxes on the wealthy or the corporations for everything. We’re all so generous with other people’s money. And yes, you can make all the arguments you want for squeezing the rich for more money, but that doesn’t change the basic argument of “Give me this and make them pay for it.”

I think we’d get more traction in advancing progressive causes if we talked more frankly about our willingness to make sacrifices. I am not rich, I am willing to pay more taxes for some things. How rarely anyone says “Raise MY taxes to do these things, just do them.”

[Der_Trihs]

@SenorBeef

I’ve always thought that if you made everyone who ate meat go to a slaughterhouse, there’d be a substantial increase in the number of vegetarians. Why? It’s not because they’d be doing anything different to continue eating meat just like they had before. But now they’d have to be faced with the costs.

Most people are weak minded. They don’t consider the implications of their actions. They don’t think that the meat on their plate comes from a cow being raised in a building, some guy hitting a cow in the head with a piston, and then chopping it up. So for them, meat may as well come from the magical meat fairy.

Similarly, “free health care” sounds great. Wouldn’t it be great if everyone had health care and cars and ice cream and ponies for free?! Sure! People can mentally detach the benefit from the cost, especially if they aren’t among the group that’s seeing the cost affect them the most.

(I’m not a vegetarian, nor do I necesarily think public health care is a bad idea - I’m merely trying to make a comparison of the mentality brought up by the OP.)

But is that “mentality” much more than a strawman? I don’t know many people who confuse UHC with"free health care" any more than they think the police are free security. And the fact is, to use your analogy right now the people who need health care are not only “going to the slaughterhouse”; they are going there as the cattle. The people who are avoiding “going to the slaughterhouse” are the people who oppose UHC, not the ones who support it.

[ElvisL1ves]

@cricetus

I’m pro public option, but I’m getting tired of people talking about “free health care.”

Who might that be?

[Bryan_Ekers]

John McCain talks about a $5,000 tax credit for health care," an announcer says. "But here’s what he’s not telling you. McCain would make you pay income tax on your health insurance benefits. Taxing health benefits for the first time ever. And that tax credit? McCain’s own Web site said it goes straight to the insurance companies, not to you, leaving you on your own to pay McCain’s health insurance tax. Taxing health care instead of fixing it. We can’t afford John McCain.

I refuse to believe that - unless the announcer is speaking a really reallly sarcastic voice.

[Der_Trihs]

@cricetus

I have conversations all the time where people talk about raising taxes on the wealthy or the corporations for everything. We’re all so generous with other people’s money. And yes, you can make all the arguments you want for squeezing the rich for more money, but that doesn’t change the basic argument of “Give me this and make them pay for it.”

I think we’d get more traction in advancing progressive causes if we talked more frankly about our willingness to make sacrifices. I am not rich, I am willing to pay more taxes for some things. How rarely anyone says “Raise MY taxes to do these things, just do them.”

The rich have been squeezing the common people for decades, and the tax laws have been changed more and more to favor them. We ALREADY have made sacrifices; but not for the common good, but for the bank accounts of the wealthy. They are the ones who have been avoiding paying their fair share, and if it isn’t stopped soon I doubt America can avoid disaster.

[Simplicio]

@cricetus

I support public health care, so there’s no lesson you need to teach me. I just think the word “free” should be dropped. As a liberal, I want my fellow liberals to sound smart. I also want the conversations to be smarter.

Again, who specifically is using the term “free”. The porposed public healthcare option isn’t even free in the sense that public schooling is free. You’d still need to send a monthly check to the gov’t to buy into it, just as you do with private health insurance. It would be subsidized by taxes, but that wouldn’t be its primary source of revenue.

I don’t think anyone except a few confused internet posters are using the term free in regards to the public health care option.

[Grumman]

@Der_Trihs

They are the ones who have been avoiding paying their fair share,

Are they paying less in taxes than the government gives back, or are you talking out of your ass again?

[tnetennba]

@Simplicio

Again, who specifically is using the term “free”.

Some people I know.

[Der_Trihs]

@Grumman

Are they paying less in taxes than the government gives back, or are you talking out of your ass again?

Define “gives back”. How much money would they have without the government supporting the very system they are making money in?

Besides; the fact is, the rich have most of the money in the country. Any fair tax setup is going to hit them harder for that reason if no other. And from the standpoint of necessity the less wealthy can’t keep carrying the rich on their backs indefinitely, especially as the rich keep taking a larger and larger chunk of the economic pie.

[lalenin]

@Candyman74

Ah, pendantry. Truly a social lubricant! I bet you’re a riot at parties!

I’m sure they don’t believe it’s “free” and that they all know what each other is talking about, even if you don’t. Actually, I’m sure you know what they mean, too.

If these people you are talking to (incidentally, I’ve never heard anyone talking about free healthcare in Cuba - you must run in very dfferent circles to me! common occurence for you?) *really *believe it’s free, then they have far greater problems than you can solve for them. Just leave 'em to it.

Sorry, I can’t leave them to it. When ‘free health care and education’ are touted as achievements of the Cuban revolution, and are used to justify any hardship of the Cuban people, I take it personally.

[gonzomax]

@cricetus

I have conversations all the time where people talk about raising taxes on the wealthy or the corporations for everything. We’re all so generous with other people’s money. And yes, you can make all the arguments you want for squeezing the rich for more money, but that doesn’t change the basic argument of “Give me this and make them pay for it.”

I think we’d get more traction in advancing progressive causes if we talked more frankly about our willingness to make sacrifices. I am not rich, I am willing to pay more taxes for some things. How rarely anyone says “Raise MY taxes to do these things, just do them.”

The basic fact is we have been cutting taxes on the rich for the last couple decades. That does not constitute bleeding by any warped stretch of the imagination. The rich get great benefits from the government.