# There's Something Irish Catholic About Mary. Or Is There? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 17, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554 "2003-12-17T16:56:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/21 "2003-12-21T02:26:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NurseCarmen \* > **Ahhh, you fail to note the Italian _Marie_ or the Spanish _Maria_.** Ahh, you fail to note that _Marie_ is French, while the Italian form is _Maria_. The only difference between the Italian and Spanish forms is that Spanish uses the acute accent: _María_. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/22 "2003-12-21T02:44:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*Ahh, you fail to note that _Marie_ is French, while the Italian form is _Maria_. The only difference between the Italian and Spanish forms is that Spanish uses the acute accent: _María_. \*\* Ah, but **Jomo** , you fail to note that _Marie_ is the plural of _Maria_. So she was clearly referring to more than one Italian Maria, but only one Spanish one.😉 **Hyperelastic** , I would agree that names like “Mary Katherine” and so on are not typically Irish. What I mean is that a girl whose full name was “Mary Katherine Frances Murphy” would usually be called “Mary” rather than “Mary Katherine”. In my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/23 "2003-12-21T03:16:59Z")
Ah, but **Hibernicus** , _a rún_, you fail to note that in Italian, personal names do not take plural forms, even when they’re plural. So for example, “the Marias” would be _le Maria_, not \*_le Marie_. Example courtesy of Google: “_Se infatti notate qui le Maria sono tre: una si firma, una a favore ed una che provoca._” (If indeed you note that the Marias are three: one who is undersigned, one to favor, and one who provokes.) I’m not sure about the OP phenomenon being specifically Irish. The French use double-barreled names as much as in the southern U.S.: Marie-France, Marie-Claire, etc. I was schooled by nuns of the Order of Notre Dame, and I always thought of this as a general Catholic thing, and specifically a nun thing. All those nuns used “Mary” as a prefix to their other names. My 4th-grade teacher was Sister Mary Anthony de Padua. I am not making this up. Since the Order of Notre Dame came from France, I think it’s as much a French thing as an Irish thing, if not more so. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/24 "2003-12-21T03:36:16Z")
**Jomo** , _a chara_, if Google is our guide to grammar, that rule seems to be honoured more in the breach. Googling in Italian for: - “tre Marie”: 970 hits (e.g. [a picture of them](http://www.comunicare.it/sacromonte/marie.htm)) - “tre Maria”: 56 hits My Harrap Italian grammar lists nine categories of nouns that don’t change in the plural, but doesn’t mention proper names. One thing I found out in Spain was that most girls (of my age) had “Maria” as a first name, but this was not used. So Celin was actually “Maria Celin”, “Rosa” was “Maria Rosa”, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/25 "2003-12-22T05:45:39Z")
Analogous to Spanish girls (and American nuns) all using Maria or Mary as a universal name prefix, I think it was Richard Reeves in _Passage to Peshawar_ who pointed out that practically all Pakistani guys have their names staring with Muhammad. All the brothers in a family have Muhammad as their first name, followed by individual names. This means, of course, as with the Spanish girls, that the name Muhammad becomes completely ignored when you call someone’s name. Sometimes Pakistanis are amazed when they meet an Arab and ask his name and he says “Muhammad.” Muhammad what? They expect to hear another name to follow it, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. No, the Arab’s name is just plain Muhammad, which is unheard of in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/26 "2003-12-22T11:51:11Z")
FWIW, the nuns at my old school were all called Mary something too, and they belonged to the Sisters of Mercy (founded in Ireland). The same is true of other Catholic orders not founded in Ireland or France, and some orders founded in both countries don’t follow that naming tradition. ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/27 "2003-12-22T12:07:58Z")
There is a huge fixation about the Virgin Mary in Irish Catholicism. Many theses have been written about connections between the Virgin Mary and Mother Ireland and our whole mother obsession. The intercession of Mary is a common theme in prayer and the rosary has a unique marian significance in Ireland. Priests used hold up Mary as an example to Irish women in terms of purity, self-sacrifice etc. In contrast, Mary doesn’t figure too much in Protestantism and particularly in Irish Protestantism. There’s a road in East Belfast called My Lady’s Road. A friend of mine from there keeps referring to it as Our Lady’s Road, betraying his Catholic programming. There’s as much chance of calling a road in East Belfast after the Virgin Mary as calling it after Bobby Sands. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/28 "2003-12-26T02:14:06Z")
_A Mhuire!_ 'Tis an Irish invocation of the name of Mary, which became anglicized as “wirra,” which is how it sounds to sassenach ears. “Wirra” is defined by the dictionary as “Used to express sorrow or anxious concern.” Speaking of Bobby Sands, when I was in Tehran I saw a hamburger joint named after Bobby Sands. Can you imagine? The dude starved himself to death and they name an eatery after him! So the diners can contemplate political starvation while chowing down. :rolleyes: \ ---
**Author:** ![Ponster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponster/32/17081_2.png) [@Ponster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/29 "2003-12-26T14:27:55Z")
Jomo is that where we get the word in the song… “There was an old woman” “She stuck the penknife in the baby’s head weela weela walia She stuck the penknife in the baby’s head Down by the river Sallia” Maybe it’s ‘wirra’ and not ‘wella’ in the song as I had been told. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/30 "2003-12-26T18:05:46Z")
I made the mistake of playing that song when I found it in _The Clancy Brothers Songbook_ which had been left near the piano, when my wee daughter, all of 3 or 4 years old, was listening. She was much distressed at the gruesome tale, and kept demanding to know if the baby died. F\*\*\*in’ blooudy Irish ballads. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/31 "2003-12-26T18:32:58Z")
Ahh! Aaahhh! God not that song! Crap, no sleep for me tonite… BTW, hijack, does anyone know what the weela weela walia bit is? I always thought that the end bit was something to do with home, like “dul abhaile” (sorry, can’t spell for crap in Irish). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/32 "2003-12-26T21:21:45Z")
OK, I went and looked up that wretched song in the Clancy Brothers’ _Irish Songbook_. It goes “Weela weela wallia.” I do not think this has any derivation from _a Mhuire_; it’s just one of those old nonsense refrains, this one with a Gaelic accent. The editor of the songbook remarks: > [@](#): > > The children in the tenements of Dublin are very wise. Since there is no place to hide anything from them, they know all the secrets of life before they are four years old. One might hear these children singing this charming song while sitting on the steps of the tenements. _The more she stabbed it the more it bled Down by the river Sallia._ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554/33 "2003-12-27T00:10:30Z")
Of my numerous Irish relatives, there’s only one I can think of with Mary as a first or second name…but five first-name Toms/Thomases…maybe we’re barking up the wrong tree? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theres-something-irish-catholic-about-mary-or-is-there/219554.md?page=1)