There's something wrong with letting cats outside?

In My Humble Opinion
81

[QUOTE=JohnM]
Coyotes are present in the eastern U.S. This Wikipedia entry is a decent introduction, and mentions the case last month of a coyote chilling out in a Quiznos in Chicago. I have relatives on Cape Cod, so I’ve known for years about the increasing coyote population there, and the associated predation of cats and small dogs. They may not be present in your area now, but likely will be in the future.
[/QUOTE]

Right, Chicago is not the East, it is the Midwest. Yes, we do get occasional coyotes and bears. However, they are still very rare. Cats are far more likely to die from cars, disease, raccoons, dogs and other cats then large predators even as far west as Chicago. I would suspect that in my lifetime, this would remain true.

BTW: There was a coyote in Central Park (Manhattan) recently. So, I am well aware they can be almost anywhere. I believe they have a long way to go to pass cars as the East Coast Cat killer.

I have made it clear from the beginning of this thread that I keep my cats inside. I want them to have that longer lifespan. Everything has exceptions, but the risk of large predators along the Rt. 95 corridor is not a high risk.

Many posters on both sides are trying to paint this as a clear cut, black and white issue. It is not. My older cat came from a farm on a mountain in upstate NY. The residents would agree with Colophon that it was crazy to try and keep a cat inside. For them, it makes sense to let the cats be indoor and outdoor cats. They also all seem to have barn cat populations. My older kitty was from a barn cat litter. Her brother was not adopted and lived about 6 or 7 years on a mountain farm with brutal winters. He was lucky he lasted that long. My kitty is close to 15 already and in excellent health. I hope she has another five good years.

This is a good reason to keep pets inside, but as **Catsix ** mentioned, her outdoor cats bucked the trend and had long and productive lives. If you live in the west, you should be concerned about Coyotes for cats and small dogs. Judging by news reports, attacks are common in the west. Attacks in the East and Midwest appear to be rare in most areas. If you live somewhere, that is an exception, then please, protect your kitty.

What is correct for LA County is not correct necessarily correct for Montana or even the outskirts of Rome, NY.

Jim

82

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train Unlike dogs (most brees of which require regular exercise) cats to not need to run and do not have herding or working instincts that require open spaces. [/QUOTE]

Here’s another thing about dogs. I agree dogs need more “outside time” but I also agree dogs shoul dnot be let free to wander the neighborhood. Howevr, for dogs, there exists a compromise- letting them run free in a fenced yard. It is damn hard to fence a yard in such a way to keep cats in.

83

[QUOTE=kellner]
Here is another european who finds the idea of keeping a cat indoors voluntarily a bit grotesque.
[/QUOTE]

Surely you, too, have ground-nesting bird species that would appreciate the opportunity to see their young fledge rather than disappear into the mouth of a cat?

84

[QUOTE=AskNott]
US farmers have kept barn cats for centuries. What has changed in the rural ecosystem in recent years?
[/QUOTE]

One thing has been the spread of suburbia and the sheer numbers of cats being kept as pets. The amount of truly rural land free from the influence of population and pets is meaningfully lower now, and still declining.

85

[QUOTE=Xema]
One thing has been the spread of suburbia and the sheer numbers of cats being kept as pets. The amount of truly rural land free from the influence of population and pets is meaningfully lower now, and still declining.
[/QUOTE]

Cite please? This sounds correct, but I wonder if the cats per household rate is really any lower now than 50 or 100 years ago.

Rural land seems to be under a much graver assault from humans ourselves then our furry feline friends.

Jim

86

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I wonder if the cats per household rate is really any lower now than 50 or 100 years ago.
[/QUOTE]

I see no reason to think so. I’m principally focusing on the expanding human population, under the assumption that cat ownership is not becoming meaningfully less popular.

In terms of the effect on native birds, one of the important ways that humans assault the land is by letting cats run free on it. Species such as thrashers, towhees, ovenbirds and bobolinks have little trouble with humans living nearby. But if those humans have outdoor cats, the trouble is considerable.

87

No great luck with Google on the history of US cat ownership. I did find a 2001 source that said the cat population was “nearly 70 million” and one from 2006 that said “approximately 90 million.” So the assumption of an increase in cats seems to be valid.

88

[QUOTE=Xema]
One thing has been the spread of suburbia and the sheer numbers of cats being kept as pets. The amount of truly rural land free from the influence of population and pets is meaningfully lower now, and still declining.
[/QUOTE]

Not to mention the ongoing fragmentation of rural land into smaller and smaller parcels, separated by suburban developments, creating areas of artificial “island” ecology.

In a discussion (elsewhere) about the effects of cat predation, I mentioned the complete extirpation of the Stephens Island wren by a lighthouse keeper’s cat. The response was, well, that was an isolated island ecosystem, we’re talking about the mainland here, where there’s a lot more space.

However, it has been noted (most famously by David Quammen in his book, The Song of the Dodo) that on the mainland, wilderness areas are becoming, functionally, islands surrounded by “civilization”. He notes that many smaller bird species are reluctant to fly over heavily built-up areas, even when there’s no physical barrier to their doing so. The result: fragmented, isolated small populations under continuous stress and with a restricted gene pool.

Introducing predators on top of that is highly destructive.

Of course, this does presuppose that you actually care about this sort of thing. I’ve pretty much given up trying to convince people to care, because it really is an individual valuation: I don’t know that there’s any logical basis to claim that preserving a relict population is more important than letting people’s cats roam free.

89

[QUOTE=Batsinma Belfry]
I realized a half second after I posted that, that somebody would remark how horrible that is. Did I say he populated the neihgborhood with stray cats? No! I didn’t. But, that’s how you read it, isn’t it?
[/QUOTE]
Very specifically, you do not get a pass if the kittens were adopted. Again, specifically, there is no reason not to spay or neuter your pet cats. None whatsoever. Both you and your neighbors fucked up big time. Specifically. In each and every instance of impregnation.

90

[QUOTE=Colophon]
This thread is possibly the weirdest thing I’ve read on the SDMB. There’s a whole nation of a quarter of a billion people that actually thinks keeping cats cooped up indoors is a good idea! I find that totally amazing and throughly depressing.
[/QUOTE]

You maybe wanna drop the anthropomorphism. Cats who live indoors aren’t ‘cooped up’. They’re tiny creatures in big houses. None of my indoor cats wanted to go out. One got out once by mistake and he was huddled against the front door yowling when we got back. He stayed far from the door after that.

They are domesticated creatures. They’ve been living indoors for a very long time. And being indoors, they are much safer and healthier than their outdoor confreres.

91

[QUOTE=light strand]
So it would be OK for a small dog to wander? A friendly one?
[/QUOTE]
Or a rabbit?

92

[QUOTE=What Exit?]

Pazu, good point, the disease vector could be bad. Up thread someone mentioned the danger to unsuspecting expecting mothers from cat feces in a flower bed or garden. These are the most realistic concerns I have seen listed in this thread.

[/QUOTE]

The disease issue is an important one to both cats and their owners, not to mention any neighbors who might come in contact with the wandering pet. As mentioned above, the issue with cat feces is the possibility of congenital toxoplasmosis, which can be devastating to a developing fetus. Cat scratch fever is unpleasant, but treatable.

On the cat side, there’s the risk of feline leukemia virus, as well as the old standby, rabies. There was some evidence last year that avian flu could fatally infect cats, although I don’t know if this was borne out by further study. And, of course, there’s the risk that your cat could bring home a bird infected with West Nile virus.

I personally think ecological concerns are realistic as well, but I recognize that a lot of people just don’t care.

93

[QUOTE=Pazu]
Introducing predators on top of that is highly destructive.

Of course, this does presuppose that you actually care about this sort of thing. I’ve pretty much given up trying to convince people to care, because it really is an individual valuation: I don’t know that there’s any logical basis to claim that preserving a relict population is more important than letting people’s cats roam free.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with part of what you are saying, Pazu. I’m looking through a wider lens, though. There is a trend of city dwellers moving a few miles out of town. As you say, it change the rural ecosystem. There’s nothing I can do about that. I didn’t move out there, and I didn’t sell the land to developers. In the long view, overall scheme of things, taking city cats out to the country has less impact than you’d think.

In one of the Wisconsin studies, rural cats, including non-farm house cats, were radio trached to see what they were killing. The cat’s poop was taken apart, too, to confirm the findings. In the most densely populated rural areas, there was one cat to every 6 acres. That’s a lot of territory in which birds, bunnies, and mice can evade a cat. Back before great-grandpa was born, there weren’t many cats out there, but foxes, fferrets, weasels, wolves, coyotes, and raccoons served the same function in the ecosphere.

Since 1970, we humans have taken many more cats into our lives. From 30 M in 1970 to 60 M in 1990, and Xema’s source says more than 90 M now. The balance is always changing, and each of us puny humans plays a microscopic part in it. Perhaps we’ll go back to keeping dogs instead. Who knows?

94

[QUOTE=AskNott]
I agree with part of what you are saying, Pazu. I’m looking through a wider lens, though. There is a trend of city dwellers moving a few miles out of town. As you say, it change the rural ecosystem. There’s nothing I can do about that. I didn’t move out there, and I didn’t sell the land to developers. In the long view, overall scheme of things, taking city cats out to the country has less impact than you’d think.
[/quote]

Less impact than that of overall land development and wilderness fragmentation? Sure, with respect to the overall viability of a species. But, as you say, once the land development has occurred, what do you do about the pieces of ecosystem that remain? I don’t think there’s a logical answer to this question, because really, people just care, or they don’t.

California quail aren’t going extinct anytime soon, but I personally care that they don’t nest in our area anymore because of wandering cats. My neighbors presumably don’t give a shit about quail, and would rather let their cats wander. Who’s right?

I see two main problems with this study as reported.

  1. It doesn’t take into account the animals that cats kill but don’t ingest, which I submit are likely to be in higher numbers than those that can be identified in fecal analysis.

  2. We don’t have any context for the population density of one cat to 6 acres. Is that typical for mammalian carnivores of similar size? How many acres are required to support one fox? Essentially, is this a higher predator density than the prey species in this area have been accustomed to?

Who indeed.

95

This is purely anecdotal evidence and for my locale.

I live 3.7 miles from where I grew up. There was a creek and horse farm bordering my neighborhood. I now have a good size park and some undeveloped land bordering my little neighborhood.

We had far more feral cats when I was growing up and dogs on the loose than we have now. Groundhogs have become a common nuisance in my area and the birds appear just as safe now as they did when I was a child. In a 30-year span, cats in this area of New Jersey are not having the affect that may well be true in many other areas of the country. Most people I know now keep their cats inside. When I was young it was nearly unheard of in this area for cats to stay indoors most of the time. I suspect that even with the large increase in the house cat population, the effect in this area has actually been a decrease in cats outside.

Despite a few cats occasionally roaming through my yard, the wildlife population is robust. At any given moment there will be dozens of small birds, crows, hawks and even turkey buzzards. 4-5 deer, several ground hogs and this is after I trapped and removed a dozen last year, many squirrels, rabbits and occasionally raccoons. If you would like me to cite this, well last year during a DopeFest, with people outside and me barbequing the deer still came into the backyard to graze. I do not feed them, but they are quite use to humans at a distance and are full adjusted suburban animals.

Jim

96

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I would like to hear the rest of this story. Did the child grab the cat by the tail?
Cats generally do not attack without provocation. Against larger creatures, they almost always only attack if cornered, grabbed or at least being chased.

[/QUOTE]

Normally they don’t, but it happens. My cousin, a toddler, was sitting in the yard playing and the cat came up. Toddler giggled at him and reached out to pet him - hadn’t touched him yet - and cat went bonkers. Obviously something was up but animal control wouldn’t do anything as it was “just a cat.” :rolleyes:

~Tasha

97

[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train]
:rolleyes: So you’re proud of the fact that your cat impregnated your neighbors cats, and they had to deal with the consequences? (Not to place all the burden on you; clearly, neighbors who didn’t want their female cats to become impregnated should have spayed those animals.) Animal control, the Humane Society, and any number of other local shelters are packed to the gills with cats nobody wants; cats they have to destroy every day because there’s no one to take them. There’s no need to add to the population.

Feeding wild animals–be they cats, coyotes, or bears–is always a bad idea. It lures them into an urban or suburban environment where they are otherwise unsuited to cope, and thus cause aggrevation, damage, and spread of disease. If you do so–or let your “domestic” pet wander the neighborhood unsupervised–then don’t complain if it is injured, captured, or killed.

Stranger
[/QUOTE]

I adopted my cat from the shelter. What made you think I was feeding a stray? I don’t know what made him act wild, maybe he was tortured by the previous owner, or born feral.

98

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Very specifically, you do not get a pass if the kittens were adopted. Again, specifically, there is no reason not to spay or neuter your pet cats. None whatsoever. Both you and your neighbors fucked up big time. Specifically. In each and every instance of impregnation.
[/QUOTE]

If there were no more cat impregnations, ever. There would be no more cats.
Why do you hate cats? Do you want them to become extinct? You make it sound like there are herds of feral cats swarming into every city.

And FTR, I wasn’t asking for a “pass” thankyouverymuch. There are a lot of very valid posts in this thread and others, on why cats should be kept indoors. However, your’s is not one of them. It’s both offensive and silly.

99

[QUOTE=Batsinma Belfry]
If there were no more cat impregnations, ever. There would be no more cats.
[/QUOTE]
Really? So you view your behavior as crucial to the continuation of the species? I was unaware that they were endangered. Perhaps you could point me toward that information.

I love cats. I think they’re great.

No. Is that about to happen? How has this flown under the radar?

Not sure where you got that, but there are **far **too many feral cats in the world. They tend not to swarm into cities, as much as propagate from them. Nearly 100% of the blame rests on the shoulders of irresponsible pet owners who allow there unaltered cats to roam freely.

And they are called colonies, not herds.

Until this imaginary crisis of declining cat populations actually occurs, there will never be a good reason not to spay or neuter a pet cat. Never. In my county alone last year over 10,000 cats and dogs were killed at the animal shelter. Nationally, the number for cats alone is into the millions. Cite. Adding to the number of potential victims is what’s offensive. Choosing to create kittens rather than save a cat from death row is what’s offensive. Trying to defend such behavior is more than silly. It is a position totally without merit; one for which no defense is possible.

100

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Really? So you view your behavior as crucial to the continuation of the species? I was unaware that they were endangered. Perhaps you could point me toward that information.
I love cats. I think they’re great.

No. Is that about to happen? How has this flown under the radar?

Not sure where you got that, but there are **far **too many feral cats in the world. They tend not to swarm into cities, as much as propagate from them. Nearly 100% of the blame rests on the shoulders of irresponsible pet owners who allow there unaltered cats to roam freely.

And they are called colonies, not herds.

Until this imaginary crisis of declining cat populations actually occurs, there will never be a good reason not to spay or neuter a pet cat. Never. In my county alone last year over 10,000 cats and dogs were killed at the animal shelter. Nationally, the number for cats alone is into the millions. Cite. Adding to the number of potential victims is what’s offensive. Choosing to create kittens rather than save a cat from death row is what’s offensive. Trying to defend such behavior is more than silly. It is a position totally without merit; one for which no defense is possible.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, you got wooshed. I was demonstrating how you were overreacting to my post. See, I did that by overreacting to your post and making it look like you meant something other than what you meant.

Gee, thanks for pointing that out. :rolleyes:
I’m fully aware of what they’re called. You forgot to mention that they also don’t “swarm”.