# Thermisol, Autism, and Homeland Security **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955 "2002-11-16T00:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/1 "2002-11-16T00:05:27Z")
Tipped off to this from Tom Tomorrow: "…In one last-minute addition, Representative Dick Armey, Republican of Texas, inserted a provision that was apparently intended to protect Eli Lilly, the pharmaceutical giant, from lawsuits over thimerosal, a mercury-based vaccine preservative that some parents contend has caused autism in their children. “I’m really quite surprised they would put in the fine-print provisions we never saw in any other versions, that never even went through committees,” said Representative Henry A. Waxman of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee."… > **[House Approves Domestic Security Bill (Published 2002)](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/14/us/house-approves-domestic-security-bill.html)** > > House approves by 299-121 vote revised domestic security bill reflecting new agreement with White House on reducing worker protections for government employees and brushing aside Democratic objections that Republican leaders have added provisions... From the Washington Post: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56918-2002Nov14.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56918-2002Nov14.html) “Riding along on legislation to create a new federal Department of Homeland Security is a White House-backed provision that could head off dozens of potential lawsuits against Eli Lilly and Co. and other pharmaceutical giants…” …"“The industry has seized the opportunity presented by a Republican House and Senate to immediately pass legislation to get the industry off the hook,” said Dallas lawyer Andrew Waters. “To me, it looks like payback for the fact that the industry spent millions bankrolling Republican campaigns.” GOP officials said the provisions are merely aimed at protecting companies working on life-saving products from being dragged into costly litigation by trial lawyers. Pharmaceutical companies were among the largest contributors to Republicans in this year’s elections, while trial lawyers heavily backed Democrats."… …"Richard Diamond, a spokesman for retiring House Majority Leader Richard K. Armey (R-Tex.), said the provision was inserted because “it was something the White House wanted. It wasn’t [Armey’s] idea…” As some of you may already know, my politics are…left of center. So, naturally, my first thought is a payoff to the pharmacuetical companies for campaign contributions. Second, and third, as well. But, to be fair, we must consider the possible Homeland Security considerations here. Clearly, there is a powerful national security motive for an under the table amendment to protect a drug giant from lawsuits. Except I can’t think what they might be. Surely its only my lefty biases, the Usual Suspects no doubt have perfectly reasonable explanations. I await them. PS: Anybody got any numbers on vaccination programs in California? As it might relate to the otherwise inexplicable upsurge in autism in California (what is it? tripled? something like that) ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/2 "2002-11-16T00:19:13Z")
Shameful. But then, we always knew that sudden Republican commitment to a homeland security department was mere posturing. The real goal is to slide stuff they couldn’t pass on the mertits though the back door by calling it ‘homeland security’. Exibit A is the desire to bust the Unions. Exibit B is granting immunity to drug companies for past malfesance. [http://www.pla.blogspot.com/](http://www.pla.blogspot.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Whynotski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/958977/32.png) [@Agent\_Whynotski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Whynotski)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/3 "2002-11-16T00:27:16Z")
Well aside from all the past problems regarding vaccines, I believe this addition stems from the fact the administration wants to bring back smallpox vaccines to help counter bioterrorism. Perhaps the admin has already contacted Eli to produce the vaccines for it’s military personnel. And with plans on introducing the vaccine to the general public within 5 yrs, this add-in could save Eli $$ on future lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/4 "2002-11-16T00:34:06Z")
Wow, **Tejota** hell of a link. What the heck ever motivated anybody to use mercury as an ingredient in childrens vaccines? The cumulative effects of mercury have been known for years, if ever there was a group of persons who should have _no_ contact with mercury, it would be children, the younger, the more so. But, before we march on the White House with torches and pitchforks, we have to hear from the Usual Suspects. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Whynotski](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/958977/32.png) [@Agent\_Whynotski](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Whynotski)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/5 "2002-11-16T00:59:52Z")
[http://www.909shot.com/Newsletters/spsmallpox.htm](http://www.909shot.com/Newsletters/spsmallpox.htm) > [@](#): > > Health Secretary Orders 300 Million Doses of Vaccine: One month after the September 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, DHHS Secretary Tommy Thompson called on industry and government to produce and stockpile 300 million doses of vaccinia virus vaccine by the end of 2002. He said that all Americans should know they “have their name on a vaccine shot in our inventory.” Cost estimates range from $500 million to nearly $2 billion.1,15,78 In order to be able to accomplish this goal, some in industry are calling for cutting the number of participants in vaccine trials and bypassing standard safety and efficacy requirements to quickly create a stockpile of vaccine.16,17,25 > > Industry Asks for Immunity From Lawsuits: Drug companies competing for the multi-million dollar contract to produce enough vaccinia virus vaccine to vaccinate every American are asking Congress to pass legislation shifting all liability for vaccine injuries and deaths to the government (American taxpayer). Already, there are bills being drafted in Congress to create a federal fund to compensate victims of bioterrorism vaccines, such as vaccinia virus vaccine.79 ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/6 "2002-11-16T01:14:12Z")
Does anyone have the text of the amendment itself? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/7 "2002-11-16T01:30:25Z")
I _think_ so, [here,](http://hsc.house.gov/legislation/hr5710.pdf) starting in section 1714, on page 482 (slow connection speed, beware!). But a) no guarantees that that’s it – I didn’t read the whole thing and b) you’ll have to read it along with a copy of the USC, since it just reads ‘strike this’ and ‘add that.’ ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/8 "2002-11-16T04:48:38Z")
Two seperate issues- **Why is this a rider on this bill?** Probably because that is how politics works. Many bills have unrelated riders tacked on. It probably came up during this bill because of the current devasting shortages of many childhood vaccines. Vaccines are just not all that profitable compared to other avenues that Big Pharma invests in. Frivolous lawsuits are an unknown that make vaccines an unappealing business investment compared to Pharma’s other options. **Allegations about vaccines and autism.** Allow me to refer you to the cdc’s site [http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/autism/default.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/autism/default.htm) In short, there is **no** evidence linking autism to vaccines. Thimerosol is being specifically evaluated, despite the lack of even circumstantial evidence, and “preliminary results are not showing any association between thimerosal and autism.” The amount of mercury in these vaccines was less than in a tuna fish sandwich. Moreover, none of the currently recommended childhood vaccines contain thimerosol. So far I haven’t seen the rate of reported autism decreasing since it was removed from all routine childhood shots. I’ll be happy to take bets that it won’t either. Autism has its origins prenatally. It may not become clearly manifest until more complex cognition develops, during the latter part of the second year, but has its start before a child is even born. There are definite genetic contributions to autism. There _may_ be some environmental trigger as well. _Lots_ of factors have changed over the last two decades … any of them are potential suspects. Is there an epidemic of autism? Well, there is a lot more autism diagnosed, and it is diagnosed at 18 - 24 months now instead of at 5 or 6 years old, like it used to be. But most of the kids called autistic today would not have been called autistic fifteen or even ten years ago. What has happened is that we kid docs have been educated about the full spectrum of autistic disorders and have become convinced that early identification and intervention makes a significant difference. Funny thing, when you know you can do some good by finding something you start looking for it, you start looking for something and you find it more often. The most frustrating thing to me is that we finally have some research monies available for basic research related to autism. I think that there has been some real significant progress. And, because they so desperately want something to blame, some parents of autistic kids are inadvertedly aiding and abetting the diversion of these research monies from the research that gets at a full understanding, to defending good medicine against bad science. The immunization conspiricy theorists always have another gunman on a different grassy knoll to suggest. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/9 "2002-11-16T04:54:26Z")
Well, now, I don’t know that much about it yet, **D** , kind of what this is about, to some degree. But it does strike me that if, as you say, this is all irrational nonsense, then what have they to fear? These evil, grasping trial lawyers may well be the monsters they are portrayed to be, perhaps even as evil as the dreaded NEA, but how many of them are likely to press a case if there is _no_ evidence? Why, then, should it be necessary to protect Big Drug from them? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/10 "2002-11-16T06:03:52Z")
What a wonderful word that is: **HOMELAND SECURITY.** Who could possibly oppose it? It’s almost as good as **PATRIOTS ACT** You can attatch anything to it and nobody would dare vote against it. Why didn’t Bill Clinton ever think of this? They should call their next bill **THE INNOCENT BABIES AND PUPPIES ACT.** They can attach fine print riders with lots more pay-offs to GOP contributers, and maybe, just maybe they can get that Alaskan gang-rape thing through the senate. Hey, if the dems object, the pubs can just say, “What’s the matter, commie, you don’t like puppies and babies?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/11 "2002-11-16T06:29:04Z")
Have you ever been sued? Any given Sunday for football, any given court day for law suits. The odds of junk science convincing a jury may not be huge, but is not zero. You can hire experts to day all kinds of things and Dr. Joe Blow may sound as convincing as the CDC to some juries. And autistic kids and their families are very sympathetic plaintiffs, taking on the big bad drug guys. It isn’t like vaccine manufacturers haven’t lived it before. Whooping cough (pertussis) once killed thousands a year. The DTP shot made it virtually disappear. But a certain number of kids manifest an underlying neurological problem sometime during their first year of life, often first as a seizure showing up during a high fever … and the DTP caused high fevers. There was no eviedence that the pertussis shot caused neurological problems, every study done showed no greater incindence of neurologic problems than in those who did not get the shot. But the child had seemed alright, got the shot, got a fever, got a seizure, and from then on was noted to never be neurologically normal. To a jury the shot was responsible. And you cannot prove that the shot never causes neurologic problems. Only that if it does, it does so so rarely as to be undetectable by a study including only a few hundred thousand kids. The awards were astronomical. Do you know that for a year and a half I couldn’t give tetnus boosters to High Schoolers due for them due to shortages? That I cannot today give a booster shot for the most common cause childhood meningitis and other overwhelming infections because of shortages? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/12 "2002-11-16T08:52:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But it does strike me that if, as you say, this is all irrational nonsense, then what have they to fear? These evil, grasping trial lawyers may well be the monsters they are portrayed to be, perhaps even as evil as the dreaded NEA, but how many of them are likely to press a case if there is no evidence? Two words: breast implants. Dow Corning paid out dump trucks full of money to women who supposedly got various disorders (mostly autoimmune and connective tissue diseases, if I recall) from silicone breast implants, despite very good studies demonstrating no connection that were available at the time. It really isn’t too hard to understand. Mercury is bad. Children took shot with mercury. Bad thing happened to some children. Therefore, mercury probably caused bad thing. Who needs more than that? Those doctors will try to confuse you with talk about P-values, and confounding factors, and meta-analyses, but deep down they know that these children took those mercury shots and then developed these devastating conditions. Those doctors drove here today in their brand new Cadillacs and Mercedes-Benzes, and I’m sure they never felt one bit of guilt for any of those kids, because their pocketbooks matter more to them than the health and welfare of the children they treat. If you fail to return a guilty verdict, you too are placing the doctor’s financial well-being over the well-being of those children. See? Keep that up for a few weeks, add some lousy numbers printed up in pretty charts, get the distraught mother to cry on the stand, make sure the little tyke never misses a day on the front row of the gallery, and get a guy in a white lab coat claiming to be an MD to come in and pin it all on mercury, and you’d really have a hard time losing. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/13 "2002-11-16T10:32:36Z")
Wonderful tantrums **DSeid** and **DoctorJ**. And what, praytell, does this have to do with homeland security? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/14 "2002-11-16T12:42:24Z")
I’d say they have a lot to do with the topic of the OP which is what does preventing a drug company from lawsuits have to do with National Security. I’m no fan of the pharmaceutical industry, but even I’ll admit that suing over false allegations is ridiculous. CJ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/15 "2002-11-16T17:34:37Z")
**DrJ** and **DSeid** obvioulsy bring some expertise to the question, or at least allude to such. Would you share that with us? It may be true that there is no evidence linking autism with this preservative, on the other hand, there was no evidence linking cholera with water until whats-his-face discovered where everybody was getting their water. Also, I’m sure you will recognize, this wouldn’t be the first time epidemiological evidence was covered up in the name of profit, _if_ that is what is happening here. And I am not saying that it is. Aside from the issue at hand, I would be interested in your conjectures as to the dramatic upsurge in autism in California, even a wild assed guess would be interesting. Hot tubs? Vegans? The final revenge of LSD? This isn’t a trap, I dont intend to hold you to anything, I’m just really curious about this phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/16 "2002-11-16T17:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Wonderful tantrums DSeid and DoctorJ. And what, praytell, does this have to do with homeland security? Not much, really. I’ve never been a fan of the practice of attaching unrelated riders to legislation. I also don’t care for the practice of the government shielding businesses from legal action. I have no general love for pharmaceutical companies. Still, my cursory reading of the evidence over the years has convinced me that the vaccination-autism links are without merit, so in this case the lawsuits are in fact undeserved. It may be a case of a good end being brought about by a bad method, and that’s why I’m not sure where I stand on the bill itself. Attaching it to the Homeland Security Bill seems to be a blatant attempt to shove it through with minimal debate and/or re-cast the bill as the Pro-Mothers, Children, and Puppies Act. That, in a word, is crap. **DSeid** would be far more equipped to discuss the particulars of this issue than I would; as an internist, I haven’t thought about pediatrics for quite some time now. The second a major controversy erupts regarding community-acquired pneumonia, though, I’m your man! Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/17 "2002-11-16T18:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*But, to be fair, we must consider the possible Homeland Security considerations here. Clearly, there is a powerful national security motive for an under the table amendment to protect a drug giant from lawsuits. > > Except I can’t think what they might be. Surely its only my lefty biases, the Usual Suspects no doubt have perfectly reasonable explanations. I await them.\*\* This item was covered in detail on FNC Special Report last night. First of all, it’s a lie that this provision would prevent lawsuits. Actually, it would require that the case go first to a panel, but _lawsuits would still be fully available._ Second, the fraudulent nature of the lawsuits has already been covered by other panelists. We have seen big money paid with no medical justification for other useful drugs, e.g., Bendectin. Bendectin was driven off the market entirely, although it was an important drug for morning sickness. Third, there is a Homeland Security connection. According to Senator Bill Frist M.D., the number of companies manufacturing this vaccine has dropped from something like a dozen to only two. As phony law suits drive vaccine manufacturers away, we will have less defence against biological warfare. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/18 "2002-11-16T18:56:31Z")
elucidator asked: > [@](#): > > I would be interested in your conjectures as to the dramatic upsurge in autism in California Let’s take this one step at a time. First, what is your information? In the OP, you indicated that you didn’t even know what the numbers were. Now you’re asking for a justification of them. Second, even _if_ the numbers went up, why should we _assume_ it has anything to do with vaccinations? Every single reliable study I have seen indicates that there is **zero** link between them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/19 "2002-11-16T19:07:58Z")
Incidentally, I know this has been covered already, but I just had to point back to [my staff report on silicon and silicone](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msilicon.html), in which I discussed the whole silicone implant lawsuit fiasco. I noted: > [@](#): > > Yes, it is true that a number of large and prestigious scientific studies have shown that silicone breast implants are not linked to the systemic diseases that many claimed they caused. Unfortunately, this knowledge comes a bit late for many of the lawsuits that manufacturers have already lost or settled. It seems that many of the plaintiffs (and juries) were unaware that correlation is not the same as causation. They went by the false logic of: “I got implants; I got a disease; they must be related.” Studies have shown, however, that the occurrence of such diseases is no higher in women with breast implants than in women without. Thus, silicone implants don’t cause the diseases. It’s simply coincidence and while I feel bad for the women who have gotten these diseases, that doesn’t mean silicone is to blame. Replace “silicone” with “vaccines” and “systemic disease” with “autism” and you potentially have almost the exact same situation. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955/20 "2002-11-16T19:23:46Z")
Whoa, steady there, big horse! Easy up, now. I asked the question in all innocence, as I made clear. I have seen news reports to the effect that a dramatic upsurge in autism has taken place, I am by no means purporting that such is true, or that it has any direct bearing on the matter at hand. I am curious and am inquiring of people who may have insight. Whether or not autism can be said to be caused or otherwise provoked by the aforementioned preservative is, indeed, one question. Whether BushCo is abjectly serving the needs of its corporate masters is quite another. This unworthy one further humbly denies that he is, by any stretch of the imagination, less than utterly awed by the majesty and probity of One who carries the Name “Moderator”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermisol-autism-and-homeland-security/136955.md?page=2)