# Thermodynamics falsifies evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 20, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038 "2002-12-20T16:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![krazy\_kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b2d939/32.png) [@krazy\_kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krazy_kat)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/1 "2002-12-20T16:04:53Z")
_not a scientist (as evidenced by this post)_ from: [http://www.islam-online.net/English/Science/2002/12/article04.shtml](http://www.islam-online.net/English/Science/2002/12/article04.shtml)? "Evolutionary theory is an assertion that is advanced by totally ignoring this basic and universally true law of physics. The mechanism offered by evolution totally contradicts [The Second Law of Thermodynamics]. " This guy seems to put together a compelling argument. I know it’s bogus and many of you can debunk it - anyone care to give it a whirl? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/2 "2002-12-20T16:07:56Z")
The second law of thermodynamics states (in so many words) that in a closed system, you can’t finish a process with more energy than you began. But the Earth isn’t a closed system - it receives energy from the sun, so the argument is invalid. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/3 "2002-12-20T16:10:46Z")
Obligatory talk-origins links. [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo) In short, he doesn’t understand the second law of thermodynamics, nor does he understand evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/4 "2002-12-20T16:11:28Z")
Oh, I see that the author argues that point with ‘order cannot arise from chaos’ or some such… Sand grains are pretty randomly shaped, the wind blows at random and yet quite orderly patterns emerge on a breezy beach. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/5 "2002-12-20T16:22:59Z")
However, it’s nice to see a little unity between fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/6 "2002-12-20T16:32:32Z")
That guy obviously doesn’t know his [MC Hawking](http://www.mchawking.com/includes/lyrics/entropy_lyrics.php) **WARNING: explicit lyrics!!** > [@](#): > > Creationists always try to use the second law, > to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw. > The second law is quite precise about where it applies, > only in a closed system must the entropy count rise. > The earth’s not a closed system’ it’s powered by the sun ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/7 "2002-12-20T16:36:13Z")
What’s the Arabic form for “Jack Chick?” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/8 "2002-12-20T16:37:48Z")
For instance a Maxwell Demon is not impossible (see any refrigerator), but it uses more energy than it creates. (So leaving your fridge open in the summer will heat, not cool, your kitchen. Winter too.) ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/9 "2002-12-20T16:43:11Z")
This should probably be moved to Great Debates and I’m sure a mod will be along to do it. The author states that external energy is unusable without a conversion system such as photosynthesys or the digestive tract of an animal. That argument ignores that there were many evolutionary steps before photosynthesys. The misuse of the second law of thermodynamics is one I’ve gotten so used to I’ve almost stopped trying to argue it. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/10 "2002-12-20T17:16:40Z")
Yeah, saw this on the ForteanTimes site. Quickly stopped reading it when I saw: > [@](#): > > The theory of evolution says that disordered, dispersed, and lifeless atoms and molecules spontaneously came together in time in a certain order and plan to form extremely complex molecules such as proteins, DNA, and RNA after which they gradually brought about millions of different living species with even more complex structures. The theory of evolution says nothing about how life arose, merely how different species have come into being. That first ancestor could have been created whole by God Himself, as far as Darwin was concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/11 "2002-12-20T17:29:39Z")
No need for GD. It’s pretty clear that the Second Law of Thermodynamics and evolution is compatible. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/12 "2002-12-20T17:32:08Z")
From the link: > [@](#): > > The mechanism offered by evolution totally contradicts this law. Eh? The “mechanism”, in Darwin’s own words: > [@](#): > > In the survival of favoured individuals and races, during the constantly-recurrent Struggle for Existence, we see a powerful and ever-acting form of Selection. The struggle for existence inevitably follows from the high geometrical ratio of increase which is common, to all organic beings. This high rate of increase is proved by calculation,—by the rapid increase of many animals and plants during succession of peculiar seasons, and when naturalised in new countries. More individuals are born than can possibly survive. > […] > The slightest advantage in certain individuals, at any age or during any season, over those with which they come into competition, or better adaptation in however slight a degree to the surrounding physical conditions, will, in the long run, turn the balance. > […] > If, then, animals and plants do vary, let it be ever so slightly or slowly, why should not variations or individual differences, which are in any way beneficial, be preserved and accumulated through natural selection, or the survival of the fittest? If man can by patience select variations useful to him, why, under changing and complex conditions of life, should not variations useful to nature’s living products often arise, and be preserved or selected? > […] > The theory of natural selection, even if we look no farther than this, seems to be in the highest degree probable. There is certainly nothing in the above which violates any natural law, especially the Second Law of Thermo. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/13 "2002-12-20T17:33:33Z")
Er…the above quote by Darwin is from _The Origin of Species_, Chap. XV, “Recapitulation and Conclusion” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/14 "2002-12-20T22:58:46Z")
Well, we know evolution isn’t possible, because if it were, a lot of my coworkers couldn’t exist. Dinosaurs, all of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/15 "2002-12-21T00:15:41Z")
I don’t think that the reason for evolution not breaking the laws of thermodynamics is that the earth is a closed system. We could easily extend the system to be the solar system or beyond so that for all intents and purposes the system is closed. I believe that the real reason is that entropy is not really disorder. As discussed in the talkorigins links from an earlier poster. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/16 "2002-12-21T00:52:44Z")
Entropy is disorder!! Though it doesn’t serve well as an exact defintion as a general defintion entropy=disorder is a good one. The reason why evolution works is that as a process it produces more disorder than it creates order. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/17 "2002-12-21T08:44:54Z")
This is one of the oldest, lamest, and most thoroughly debunked anti-evolution arguments out there. If you run into someone still using it, it should tell you a lot about that person. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/18 "2002-12-21T08:52:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Padeye \* > \*\*What’s the Arabic form for “Jack Chick?” \*\* Usama bin Ladin. ---
**Author:** ![ryoushi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@ryoushi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryoushi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2002, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thermodynamics-falsifies-evolution/144038/19 "2002-12-21T09:09:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gazpacho \* > **I don’t think that the reason for evolution not breaking the laws of thermodynamics is that the earth is a closed system. We could easily extend the system to be the solar system or beyond so that for all intents and purposes the system is closed.** In that case, the total entropy of the solar system will be increasing, but the entropy of the Earth can still decrease, as long as there’s a comparable (or greater) increase in the entropy of the other parts of the system (in this case, the Sun).