# These town hall meetings have been interesting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549 "2017-02-23T13:53:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/181 "2017-03-01T07:10:53Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Seems to me that if the woman wants someone else to fund her housing, food, education, etc, that someone else should have a say as to whether or not said woman creates more mouths to feed. Cool. Given that you as a government-aid recipient have us employed taxpayers helping fund **your** housing, food, etc., what aspects of **your** life should we get to “have a say” in? After all, if your lifestyle, health choices, etc., result in avoidable additional medical costs for you, for example, that’s more expense for us. So, **curlcoat** , waiting to hear all about your current weight, diet, results of latest physical, all the things that might affect how much you’re going to cost us. Remember, individual privacy and autonomy are unimportant compared to the right of the people contributing funding to “have a say” in what they’re helping to fund. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/182 "2017-03-01T07:35:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cool. Given that you as a government-aid recipient have us employed taxpayers helping fund **your** housing, food, etc., what aspects of **your** life should we get to “have a say” in? After all, if your lifestyle, health choices, etc., result in avoidable additional medical costs for you, for example, that’s more expense for us. > > So, **curlcoat** , waiting to hear all about your current weight, diet, results of latest physical, all the things that might affect how much you’re going to cost us. Remember, individual privacy and autonomy are unimportant compared to the right of the people contributing funding to “have a say” in what they’re helping to fund. I am simply not going to respond to people who think that a pension plan is welfare. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/183 "2017-03-01T09:11:04Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am simply not going to respond to people who think that a pension plan is welfare. Have you reached retirement age? If not, then in your case, you’re _mooching off_ everyone else’s pension plan to get a kind of welfare. Pensions are for the elderly. You’re not elderly. Just because it’s administered by the Social Security Administration, and is paid out of the same pot of money, doesn’t change the nature of the beast. At least, that’s what the conservatives tell me. > [@](#): > > Seems to me that if the woman wants someone else to fund her housing, food, education, etc, that someone else should have a say as to whether or not said woman creates more mouths to feed. Also, it isn’t like anyone is forcing her to get the implant or whatever it is these days, it is merely a choice she gets to make. Seems to me if she is legit trying to turn her life around, being given the option to not get pregnant would be a plus. Good grief, you can’t even make up your mind whether it should be mandatory (“someone else should have a say as to whether or not said woman creates more mouths to feed”) or a choice (“being given the option to not get pregnant would be a plus”). Like I said, liberals want to keep that option available for poor women, the vast majority of whom would gladly take it. Republican officeholders are almost unanimously against it. If you’re for it, stop ranting at liberals. (I know: “Why do you keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with the subject? Especially non starters like that.” Because it IS the subject. Look, including your suggestion of mandatory temporary sterilization, there are three options: 1. GOP: if poor women want birth control, they have to pay for it themselves. 2. Dems: if poor women want birth control, insurance should pay for it. 3. You: if poor women receive public assistance, they should undergo forced temporary sterilization. But apparently you rank them 3, 1, 2. Which tells me that your goal isn’t minimizing the number of children born to women who can’t afford them, but rather you’re about punishing women for being poor, and taking away what choices they have. That’s what conservatives are all about. (They’re more 1, 3, 2, but same underlying principle.) On this issue, you’re one of them. Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/184 "2017-03-01T10:11:24Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am simply not going to respond to people who think that a pension plan is welfare. But you’re not getting a pension. You’re getting taxpayer-funded disability assistance from a government program. Thinking that taxpayer-funded disability assistance from a government program is welfare makes at least as much sense as thinking that taxpayer-funded assistance for health insurance premiums from a government program is welfare. Both of which are part of **what the social safety net is supposed to be for**. There’s no shame in needing some help if circumstances require it. There **is** shame, however, in being a selfish and hypocritical jerk who bitches about other people getting assistance instead of feeling grateful for the assistance they get themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/185 "2017-03-01T13:58:41Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > This doesn’t appear to be an answer to my question. Here in the States we have far too many people who have no concept of delayed gratification. They want a house, they buy it whether they will be able to afford it going forward, so we ended up with all of those junk mortgages. Never in the history of capitalism have borrowers been the gatekeepers of who gets credit. It has always been the lenders. True the government pressured banks to make loans to black people with bad credit but the only way that really had any effect on the mortgage crisis is that it gave the bankers a dataset on which they could model the default rate on subprime loans. But it turns out that black families with bad credit but sufficient income defaulted a MUCH lower rates than white people with bad credit and insufficient income but they treated them the same for modeling purposes and their model blew up. This is anecdotal but the folks I know that hyperextended themselves to live in a home they couldn’t really afford did it for a few reasons. They thought that the price of homes would increase sufficiently to cover the interest and credit was very very loose. But for a lot of people it was about getting their kids into better schools. > [@](#): > > Save to make sure said kids can go to college? Oh hell no - they can get a loan or just start working. To be fair, most people can afford to attend their state school without saving a whole lot. > [@](#): > > I guess what you are saying is that the government should step in and force these folks to be responsible, at least in the area of healthcare coverage? By setting it up that as soon as they are adults or working or something, they have to pay a tax to support the government insurance? Are you aware of how well government insurance has worked (not) in this country? Wait, how has medicare failed? > [@](#): > > So, back to my original question - does universal coverage work in other countries because a vast majority of their people are responsible, contributing citizens. Or is it like it is here - the responsible, contributing ones pay to cover the irresponsible? In other countries people view health care like education. Something that should not be distributed based purely on ability to pay. The biggest problem with the welfare state is having to listen to all the folks from states that suck up social welfare dollars lecture folks from states that provide all those social welfare dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/186 "2017-03-01T14:06:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Of course they would. Choosing to not work will not earn anyone SSDI. The SSDI fund tends to fluctuate along with the unemployment trust funds. IOW, we see huge spikes in disability claims during every recession. Its no coincidence that SSDI funds have been depleting since 2008 and is probably going to go broke in a year or two. Many of the people on SSDI are really just on extended unemployment after their unemployment benefits have run out. > **[DI Trust Fund, a Social Security fund](https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4a2.html)** > > Table 4a2 - DI Trust Fund > [@](#): > > It isn’t the weak or sick I am talking about. I wonder how many times I have to state my point before people believe it, instead of what others claim I am saying. Is it the people pretending to be weak or sick? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/187 "2017-03-01T14:09:29Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Liberals, as it appears here, are against people getting welfare having to have temporary sterilization while on welfare. Is SSDI sufficient to provide for children? Should people on SSDI also be temporarily sterilized? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/188 "2017-03-01T14:10:46Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I am simply not going to respond to people who think that a pension plan is welfare. SSDI is not a pension plan. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/189 "2017-03-01T15:11:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cool. Given that you as a government-aid recipient have us employed taxpayers helping fund **your** housing, food, etc., what aspects of **your** life should we get to “have a say” in? After all, if your lifestyle, health choices, etc., result in avoidable additional medical costs for you, for example, that’s more expense for us. > > So, **curlcoat** , waiting to hear all about your current weight, diet, results of latest physical, all the things that might affect how much you’re going to cost us. Remember, individual privacy and autonomy are unimportant compared to the right of the people contributing funding to “have a say” in what they’re helping to fund. For starters, I’m seeing “Member” rather than “Guest” on curlocat’s posts – that means some of our money got spent on these bloviations, right? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/190 "2017-03-01T17:07:13Z")
This thread is popping like a batch of electrolytic caps plugged in backwards — sorry I haven’t kept up. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What **WillFarnaby** is neglecting is that he was paying for this before Obamacare too. Please show **Mr. Farnaby** a little courtesy. He doesn’t “pay” taxes. Those funds are stolen from him at gunpoint. > [@curlcoat](#): > > The reason I’m on SSDI is because I cannot maintain a job any more. Do you understand SSDI at all? Not very well, I’m afraid. I think you’re saying you’re entitled to buy luxuries with the money stolen from **Mr. Farnaby** at gunpoint because you have a note from a doctor saying you’re too lazy to work. Welfare Mama is _not_ entitled to buy luxuries with her share of **Mr. Farnaby** ’s money because she couldn’t afford a psychiatrist to write her a note. Am I close? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/191 "2017-03-01T17:56:30Z")
_snerk_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/192 "2017-03-01T18:09:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I wonder how much time this entitled woman spends thanking taxpayers and higher-premium payers for subsidizing her and her husband’s healthcare. Actually I don’t. > > The welfare state has produced these perpetual children who throw tantrums when they don’t get their free stuff. It is not in the best interests of society to encourage this behavior. A public health care system is like a public education system or a public law enforcement system. They benefit everyone, even those who don’t directly use the system. Society as a whole benefits if the individuals in that society are healthy, educated, and law abiding. Nobody is going to abuse a public health care system. Nobody is going to choose to get sick just so they can score some free health care. And nobody is going to choose to stay sick either. Nobody is going to decide to leave a serious illness untreated because they’d rather spend their money on something else. People who don’t seek needed medical care are doing so because they can’t afford it. Health care falls outside of the free market. Nobody chooses to consumes more of it because it’s cheap and nobody chooses to consumes less of it because it’s expensive. So why relegate health care to the market place? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/193 "2017-03-01T18:13:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Health care falls outside of the free market. Nobody chooses to consumes more of it because it’s cheap and nobody chooses to consumes less of it because it’s expensive. Actually, lots of people choose to consume less because it’s expensive. If you raise cost sharing, or promote HSAs, people will use less health care, including necessary care. You should read the comments from a Michigan representative who didn’t take his son to the doctor for a broken arm because he didn’t want to pay the bill. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/194 "2017-03-01T18:27:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > SSDI is not a pension plan. Your efforts are wasted. One of **curlcoat’s** disabilities is cerebral ossification. Severe, chronic, and I fear irreversible. Many have tried to open her eyes to her own arrogant, laughable, gigantic-flashing-neon-sign hypocrisy on this subject, but it just won’t penetrate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/195 "2017-03-01T19:29:07Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Your efforts are wasted. One of **curlcoat’s** disabilities is cerebral ossification. Severe, chronic, and I fear irreversible. > > Many have tried to open her eyes to her own arrogant, laughable, gigantic-flashing-neon-sign hypocrisy on this subject, but it just won’t penetrate. There must be some reason why she thinks SSDI is a pension plan. But the basic difference between a pension plan and disability insurance is that disability insurance is funded by a lot of people for the benefit of a few people who become disabled; while a pension plan is fund by the beneficiary; welfare on the other hand is generally funded by one group of people for the benefit of another group of people I don’t doubt that there are psychiatric disabilities that prevent holding down a job but as I pointed out earlier, the rate of disability beneficiaries jumps when there is a recession and falls when the recession is over. The SSDI numbers is one of the indicators that the economy is still not very friendly to workers. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/196 "2017-03-01T19:43:38Z")
Health care choices are as much a free market transaction as your average mugging. Sometimes it is literally a matter of “Your money or your life.” I invite those who think otherwise to try to obtain the first article of information needed to make a rational economic decision, specifically, how much out of pocket cost is there going to be if I do “X”. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/197 "2017-03-01T20:55:40Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Your efforts are wasted. One of **curlcoat’s** disabilities is cerebral ossification. Severe, chronic, and I fear irreversible. > > Many have tried to open her eyes to her own arrogant, laughable, gigantic-flashing-neon-sign hypocrisy on this subject, but it just won’t penetrate. Coprolitic Brain Syndrome is a heartbreaking and overlooked disease. Thankfully, our new President is bringing much needed attention to this malady. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/198 "2017-03-01T22:08:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Actually, lots of people choose to consume less because it’s expensive. If you raise cost sharing, or promote HSAs, people will use less health care, including necessary care. You should read the comments from a Michigan representative who didn’t take his son to the doctor for a broken arm because he didn’t want to pay the bill. I don’t really think that’s a choice people make. If you don’t get necessary medical care because you don’t have the money to pay for it, you didn’t choose to not get the care. Getting the care was not an option because you didn’t have the money. That said, there’s always going to be a handful of exceptions in any large group; people like Bill Huizenga or Hetty Green who will decide to not get necessary medical attention they could have afforded. (Although it’s worth noting that both of those examples were denying a family member medical attention rather than themselves.) But the one-in-a-million exceptions don’t disprove the rule. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/199 "2017-03-01T22:18:58Z")
Pension plans are funded by both employers and employees. People who pass up the lump sum to get a pension know that they are getting back more than their own contributions. It has this in common with SSDI. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/200 "2017-03-01T22:34:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t really think that’s a choice people make. If you don’t get necessary medical care because you don’t have the money to pay for it, you didn’t choose to not get the care. Getting the care was not an option because you didn’t have the money. I’m not talking about people who can’t afford it. I’m saying that studies show that when people have to pay more, they get less care, even needed care, and even when they can afford it. [Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/with-a-high-deductible-even-a-doctor-can-shortchange-his-health/2017/02/07/3c975fd2-ed79-11e6-9973-c5efb7ccfb0d_story.html?utm_term=.1d8e70d7c774)’s an article that talks about it. Some relevant bits: > [@](#): > > As a physician, Jha knew that this tachycardia could lead to a heart attack. Yet he felt caught by a decision he’d made in enrolling his family in a high-deductible insurance plan. Such plans, which offer lower premiums in exchange for higher out-of-pocket expenses, are an increasingly common type of coverage for millions of Americans. The Harvard University health-policy researcher had chosen his — with its $6,000 deductible — as a kind of personal experiment in better understanding how that trade-off influences health. > > And now, when faced with the prospect of paying thousands of dollars for an emergency-room visit, Jha stayed home. > > “I should have gone to the hospital,” he said recently. But “I knew there was a big bill waiting for me if I did, and I rolled the dice.” > > … > > Studies dating to the 1970s have consistently shown that when consumers must spend a big chunk of their own money on their care, they can cut back by as much as 15 percent. That slowdown happens fast, dropping like a health-care guillotine. > > … > > Last year, Chandra and three colleagues looked at what happened after a Fortune 100 company switched 75,000 well-paid, tech-savvy employees into high-deductible plans. What they found closely mirrored Jha’s personal pattern. > > Workers — both the healthy and the sick — skipped out on care indiscriminately. “Prevention, imaging or drugs, consumers were cutting back on all those,” Chandra said. > > “That’s a sign they don’t really know what care is valuable and what care isn’t valuable.” > > Supporters of high-deductible plans argue that consumers need time to adapt and that more tools that will help them price-shop effectively. > > The researchers considered that, too. The company put $3,750 into a health savings account for each employee and provided a state-of-the-art online tool to compare prices for tests, doctor’s appointments and other services. > > “We found no evidence that consumers were learning to price-shop after two years of high-deductible coverage,” Chandra said. “None.” So, again, raise the price and people will stop getting care, _even care they need and even care they can afford_. Increasing cost sharing is a powerful, blunt, and dangerous tool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549.md?page=11)