# These town hall meetings have been interesting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 23, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549 "2017-02-23T13:53:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/221 "2017-03-03T01:43:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Sounds kinda like the GOP health care plan: > > “It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying, ‘Beware of the Leopard.’” > -Arthur Dent Or the ACA. “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy." ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/222 "2017-03-03T02:26:02Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Or the ACA. “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy." IIRC, though, the ACA was available - just really, really long and hard to read. This has Rand Paul pushing a copier from room to room trying to get eyes on a copy. There’s a difference in the obfuscation. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/223 "2017-03-03T04:14:55Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Well, thanks for showing all that you are really the ignorant one. And your link does not show what you claim, it actually shows that Social Security will not go broke as many right wingers claim. Uh, that was the point of my posting that link. You all seem to think that your payroll SS taxes are going straight out to pay those currently on SS, but as the link shows, it ain’t true. There are billions in the reserve fund - or were in 2014 anyway. So, either my payments are sitting in that trust or your taxes are going in there and the trust is paying my benefit. Either way, no one’s taxes are directly funding mine or anyone else SS payments. > [@](#): > > And a third big failure it is clear that SteveG1 is channeling your typical Trump or tea party republican. Go bark your inability to learn to them. I don’t know what SteveG1 has been channeling nor do I know what Trump or the tea party has to say on this subject. > [@Kimstu](#): > > The FICA taxes that employed people like us are paying most definitely **are** supporting your SSDI benefits. As **your own link** says, See above. > [@](#): > > This is either flat-out hypocrisy or just plain old cognitive dissonance. You’re bitching about the taxes you say you pay to help provide assistance for other people, I “bitch” about people taking welfare who cannot be bothered to be responsible. Which I’ve said over and over, yet you all prefer to think that I am talking about every last person on welfare. I have also said over and over that my concern is with the ever growing movement to hand people more and more things that are paid by taxes, not the fact that safety nets exist. But of course, you all just don’t seem to get that intelligent people can hold differing opinions on different parts of an issue, instead of just saying “duh, welfare good”. > [@](#): > > You don’t think people receiving benefits partly supported by your tax dollars are entitled to have a child they can’t afford, but you have no problem taking it for granted that you are entitled to own a house you can’t afford while other people’s tax dollars pay for benefits to you. What in the world makes you think we cannot afford our house? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/224 "2017-03-03T04:40:06Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > [originally posted by curlcoat]The idea is to make it mandatory if she applies for any sort of welfare. Her choice to do it and get free stuff or not do it and no free stuff. > [@](#): > > RTFirefly-Well, glad you’ve made it clear what you’re advocating. It’s always been clear, you and pretty much everyone else just likes to jump to conclusions based on almost no facts. > [@](#): > > They are two clear and distinct schools of thought. There are other opinions, but these two usually represent the range of political possibility in this country. Seriously? You think that a person is either GOP or Dem in all they believe? > [@](#): > > And you will note that I did include a third option - yours - which oddly enough You didn’t finish this, but I will point out that what you included was your idea of what my opinion is. > [@](#): > > Second, it’s the issue you brought up. You were the one accusing us libruls of heartlessness towards poor women and their potential offspring on the birth control issue. Well, first off, I didn’t accuse you all of anything, I merely said something along the lines of “I thought you all were the ones who were supposed to be so concerned with children even after they are born.” Secondly, what I brought up was universal healthcare, not BC specifically. > [@](#): > > I divided the political choice space up into, again: > > 1. No birth-control assistance at all to poor women (standard GOP position) > 2. Make birth control easily available to poor women (standard Dem position) > 3. Force birth control on poor women if they want to eat (your position) > > Which pretty much covers the waterfront. And? You still haven’t stated why you think 1 & 2 have anything to do with 3. > [@](#): > > Taking away a person’s control over his or her body is inherently punitive. Another thing you all do is exaggerate, tho I’m beginning to think you believe this. No one is taking away control, it’s merely a choice. And I’d think that any responsible woman would be glad to be given long term BC so she wouldn’t end up having another mouth to feed while she is trying to get ahead. > [@](#): > > Option #2 is about helping poor women avoid pregnancy. Option #3 is also about that, but via bullying and extortion. Option 2 doesn’t work for those women who think they are owed children whether they can afford them or not. Option 3 is only bullying and extortion in your mind. Some states are already requiring drug tests to get welfare - is that also bullying and extortion? > [@](#): > > It’s also infantilizing that person: it’s the government stepping in and making their choices for them, rather than enabling them to make good choices for themselves. That’s how you _condition_ people for dependency. And there is the central problem - too many people on welfare have already been infantilized by the government. Such as having babies while on welfare - why worry, the government will pay for it! Then when they all grow up to be blights on society, the mother can wring her hands and talk about how hard she tried but everything was against them. Add in the free education, free or cheap healthcare, junk mortgage bailout and on and on, you start getting more and more people whose fall back position is to tell Uncle Sam they need money. > [@septimus](#): > > How do you figure it was at a loss? Hubby not planning on a long retirement? Uh, what? What does one have to do with the other? > [@](#): > > Or are you including income taxes spent on national defense, law enforcement, etc.? All of that was just to benefit freeloading Welfare Mama, I guess, not you. The hell? Are you just making shit up now? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/225 "2017-03-03T05:17:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > So what? The Cal State system averages half that ($6704). Handy of you to pick the more expensive system for your example. > > Deadbeat. OK. I wasn’t aware there was a difference. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > People do pay into the Social Security system. People who collect for a long time take out more than they put in. Yup. > [@](#): > > Medicare Part A (hospital coverage) is paid for by the Medicare payroll tax. Medicare Parts B and D (physician and drug coverage, respectively) are mostly paid for by general revenues–the same source as TANF, Medicaid, etc.) > > If someone is on SSDI with a condition that will not shorten their lifespan, they will likely take in tens or hundreds of thousands more than they paid. Any time they spend on Medicare (generally people are eligible for Medicare after two years on SSDI) and use physician or drug services they are taking in more than they paid. I was eligible for Medicare right away and was forced to sign up for Part A. However, I have group insurance coverage so I don’t use the Medicare and didn’t sign up for anything else. Where did you get your figure of “tens or hundreds of thousands more than they paid”? It all depends on what age they were when they went on SSDI, how long they worked and paid in, and the big one - whether they use the Medicare. You do realize that people on SSDI get (I think it was) 60% of what they would have received if they had waited until retirement age, right? And that it doesn’t go up to the full amount when/if they reach that age? > [@SteveG1](#): > > You should have planned better. Had better jobs. Saved some money. etc etc etc etc. LOSER. I’m concerned about MY taxes. You have the right to be concerned about your taxes, but none of them are going directly to me in any way. For the rest of that, I think I may just start ignoring you since you appear to just want to accuse me of being what I am not and can’t be arsed to respond to anything I’ve actually said. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/226 "2017-03-03T05:21:05Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Your disability payments are not a fucking pension plan, you parasite. > > A pension plan will give EVERY contributor money back at the time they retire/leave the plan. A pension plan is designed as a savings plan, where \*\*everyone \*\*contribute when they are earning, and then \*\*everyone \*\*gets benefits when they are not. > > But not you. No, you are special. \*\*Everyone \*\*contributes, but only the special people get benefits. Some of them deserve them, but others are likely fakers and cheats, who are getting benefits paid for by others. I wonder which one you are? I wonder if you were drunk when you wrote that since it’s all contradictions. > [@RickJay](#): > > Social Security is not a pension plan at all, if you want to get technical about it. It’s an annuity. > > . Annuities are not paid out based on age or disability. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/227 "2017-03-03T05:38:48Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Uh, that was the point of my posting that link. You all seem to think that your payroll SS taxes are going straight out to pay those currently on SS, but as the link shows, it ain’t true. There are billions in the reserve fund - or were in 2014 anyway. So, either my payments are sitting in that trust or your taxes are going in there and the trust is paying my benefit. Either way, no one’s taxes are directly funding mine or anyone else SS payments. Meh, you are a thick one, but still you had to acknowledge that “either”; it is really stupid to then contradict yourself and add that other “either” because all the money goes to the fund, so unless you can show me the magical mechanism that separates the money going into that pool you can not dip into it without using the taxes of others. Even the super right wing American Stinker Thinker agrees with the Pew Research Center, although they have stupid reasonings of why it is evil in their opinion. > **[Suckered into Social Security](https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2011/07/suckered_into_social_security.html)** > > You know you are a senior when a company advertises that it has been in business since the year you finished college or when the waiter goes out of his way to suggest the seniors' menu.  And you know you are a senior these days when you are... > [@](#): > > Having been forced into this contract, seniors rightly expect to receive some benefits. After all, we have paid into the system. Seniors have every right to be angry that Social Security is not a pre-funded program, but an intergenerational transfer of wealth. We have been suckered, given the impression that the system was self-funded and not a welfare scheme. The main reason why you are spewing nonsense is that to keep that reserve fund it is precisely thanks to the taxes from people that are working right now the reason why “Social Security is, and always has been, an inter-generational transfer of wealth.” And of course since I have been living and working for more than 30 years in the USA you are indeed already enjoying support gained for my efforts and many others. You are welcome, even if you are so dim to ever learn. But I post for others, not much for a [Voltaire opponent](http://www.quotesvalley.com/i-have-never-made-but-one-prayer-to-god-a-very-short-one-o-lord-make-my-enemies-ridiculous-and-god-granted-it/) like you. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/228 "2017-03-03T05:43:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I wonder if you were drunk when you wrote that since it’s all contradictions. I wonder if you’re just fucking stupid when you’re reading. I think all those napkin sandwiches you ate had a very bad effect on your brain. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/229 "2017-03-03T05:48:52Z")
Let me make it simpler for you, parasite: Pension: Everyone pays in, everyone gets money out. Disability: Everyone pays in, only those who are disabled get money out… and also some cheaters and parasites like yourself. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/230 "2017-03-03T05:49:05Z")
Oh, and stop branding yourself as a bigger dunce curlcoat, Social Security or SSDI is not a pension. An elderly relative of mine made a mistake and entered her social security money amount as a “pension” when applying to get more benefits from the state, the local government aid group saw that “pension” word next to the amount she claimed she was getting and instantly her basic state medical supplemental aid was eliminated. Took months to fix that error. Even a red state like Arizona does know the difference between a pension and social security. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/231 "2017-03-03T07:42:53Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Uh, what? What does one have to do with the other? > > The hell? Are you just making shit up now? 😕 You are the one who wrote: [QUOTE=curlcoat] I, however, am taking back the money the government forced me to pay in for 35 years, at a loss BTW. [/QUOTE] I am just trying to understand what, if anything, “at a loss” means here. _ **Everyone** _ who pays into SocSec, etc. (or a private pension) _ **does so at a loss** _ — until they retire, and have been retired for a sufficient time. So what did your “at a loss” mean? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/232 "2017-03-03T08:47:30Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > It’s always been clear, you and pretty much everyone else just likes to jump to conclusions based on almost no facts. I certainly agree that your own words constitute “almost no facts,” but still, confusing and misleading as they are, they are the only evidence we have of what you’re advocating. Anyway, I think I’m done trying to sort through those words. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/233 "2017-03-03T11:44:20Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > This has Rand Paul pushing a copier from room to room trying to get eyes on a copy. The fact that I’ve taken perfectly readable document images with my smartphone camera is the cherry on top of the absurd-image sundae. Do _any_ of these guys keep up with the twenty-first century in any aspect whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/234 "2017-03-03T17:08:02Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The fact that I’ve taken perfectly readable document images with my smartphone camera is the cherry on top of the absurd-image sundae. Do _any_ of these guys keep up with the twenty-first century in any aspect whatsoever? Only when it suits their purposes. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/235 "2017-03-03T17:45:52Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The fact that I’ve taken perfectly readable document images with my smartphone camera is the cherry on top of the absurd-image sundae. Do _any_ of these guys keep up with the twenty-first century in any aspect whatsoever? In their defense, once you hit 500+ pages, a smartphone camera isn’t really the best way to get a copy of the document. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/236 "2017-03-03T17:50:22Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > In their defense, once you hit 500+ pages, a smartphone camera isn’t really the best way to get a copy of the document. Yes, but the Republican plan isn’t 500 pages. It’s **2 words** : “Fuck 'em!” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/237 "2017-03-03T18:13:00Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > What in the world makes you think we cannot afford our house? Your own words. You said that you may have to sell your house because you can’t afford to keep it: > [@curlcoat](#): > > Now days, I am middle class tho the husband is close to retiring so we may end up losing that. […] > > We are going to do our best to live on a fixed income but it is scary to think how possible it is that we will have to sell our house because taxes have become too much. […] > > […] the basis of my concern is that when my husband retires, we will not be able to live here on our pensions. […] > > […] my husband and I may have to sell our house when he retires. If you do have to sell your house, then that’s just an example of somebody on government assistance having to do without something that they can’t afford. Which you say you’re in favor of: personal responsibility, living within one’s means, etc. If you **don’t** have to sell your house because you **can** afford to keep it, then quitcher bitchin’ about how the terrible burden of taxes is dragging down your lifestyle. If you as a disabled non-earner are too poor to maintain the standard of living you prefer, then according to your own stated principles (as applied to other people, at least) you should just suck it up and settle for a standard of living that you **can** maintain. Taxation’s not what’s making you poor: your own lack of income, because of your lack of working for a living, is what’s making you poor. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/238 "2017-03-03T18:34:03Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Uh, that was the point of my posting that link. You all seem to think that your payroll SS taxes are going straight out to pay those currently on SS, but as the link shows, it ain’t true. There are billions in the reserve fund - or were in 2014 anyway. So, either my payments are sitting in that trust or your taxes are going in there and the trust is paying my benefit. Either way, no one’s taxes are directly funding mine or anyone else SS payments. That “interpretation” is the exact **opposite** of what your link says: > [@](#): > > Workers pay Social Security taxes, which are then distributed to today’s recipients as benefits. But when the taxes (and the interest the program earns on the bonds it holds) exceed the benefits, what’s left over goes into a trust fund, commonly known as the “Social Security surplus.” When you paid FICA taxes years ago when you were earning, your tax money funded the benefits of retirees and disabled people at the time. Likewise, your current benefits are being paid for by the FICA taxes levied on other people’s current earnings. You seem to imagine that current taxes don’t get spent on current benefits unless there’s not enough money in the surplus to cover current benefits, which is the very reverse of true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/239 "2017-03-03T18:35:47Z")
This thread has been curled and coated by the **curlcoat**. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549/240 "2017-03-03T18:49:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That “interpretation” is the exact **opposite** of what your link says: > > When you paid FICA taxes years ago when you were earning, your tax money funded the benefits of retirees and disabled people at the time. Likewise, your current benefits are being paid for by the FICA taxes levied on other people’s current earnings. This isn’t exactly a fantasy unique to curlcoat. The idea that Social Security is actually a pot of money is an idea that is rather ideologically entrenched. The idea is that Social Security payments are used to buy Treasury bonds, and that’s a “Trust fund.” If you’re thinking “uh, that’s just the government lending money to itself,” well, yes it is, but people can get pretty emotional that it’s not, for some reason. In any practical sense, Social Security is a pay as you go system. Even if you pretend the Social Security treasury note shell game constitute a “trust fund” it doesn’t have any money left from the past; curlcoat’s alleged payments were paid to people long ago. She is collecting tax money that people are paying today. It is a matter of open discussion and public record that Social Security payments are reliant on people paying into it NOW. There is no giant vault of money where curlcoat’s payments are lying. That money’s gone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/these-town-hall-meetings-have-been-interesting/780549.md?page=13)