# They are not Replacement Refs...They are SCABS! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798 "2012-09-25T17:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/41 "2012-09-26T03:34:15Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Let’s break this down: > > Who are the replacements helping: > > 1. Themselves and their families > 2. Tens of thousands of people that have jobs that depend on the NFL season and their families. > 3. Sport fans > 4. The team owners 1. Seattle Seahawks ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/42 "2012-09-26T03:38:14Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > While I do generally support a labor union’s ability to strike, I’m not keen on paying garbage men $250,000 a year because my neighborhood would be a rat infested shithole if nobody could remove garbage. > > Similarly, the NFL should not be required to kowtow to any and all demands by their referee union, because their multibillion dollar industry will shut down without replacements. So if it was an industry that made less money it would be OK for the refs to want more money, but since it is a [Dr Evil]Billion Dollar[/Dr Evil] industry then they are just being greedy. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/43 "2012-09-26T04:45:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Let’s break this down: > > Who are the replacements helping: > > 1. Themselves and their families > 2. Tens of thousands of people that have jobs that depend on the NFL season and their families. > 3. Sport fans > 4. The team owners > [@fumster](#): > > 1. Seattle Seahawks 1. [Fox, CBS, NBC and ESPN](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2012/09/24/nfl-nbc-fox-cbs-cris-collinsworth-al-michaels/70001028/1#.UGKIErKPXkc). ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/44 "2012-09-26T04:55:51Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > So if it was an industry that made less money it would be OK for the refs to want more money, but since it is a [Dr Evil]Billion Dollar[/Dr Evil] industry then they are just being greedy. The NFL is not an industry, it is a tax-exempt non-profit organization. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/45 "2012-09-26T05:08:37Z")
I somehow get the feeling that the OP could give a fuck over the principle of these so called “Scabs” stepping over union lines. I think this has more to do with his teams not winning. So please spare us your implied altruism OP. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/46 "2012-09-26T05:09:52Z")
Non-profit operations and industry are not mutually exclusive. Postsecondary educational facilities are almost invariably not-for-profit operations. Anyway, the NFL is a trade association representing the 32 members of the major league professional football industry. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/47 "2012-09-26T06:15:56Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > I somehow get the feeling that the OP could give a fuck over the principle of these so called “Scabs” stepping over union lines. > > I think this has more to do with his teams not winning. > > So please spare us your implied altruism OP. I’m sorry, i didn’t realize e had met. But I must be mistaken given how much you know about me. Funny though, i usually remember the assholes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/48 "2012-09-26T07:24:20Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Right, the important conversation is how important the game is and it must go on and how the poor wittle “replacement refs” are just doing their best to undermine the real referees position. You know what scabs are used for and why they are called scabs? They are not innocent in this, they are willing pawns of the owners. They are garbage. What a crock of bullshit. If people have the right to strike, then the owners of a company have the right to try to replace them. If the replacements can do the job, then fuck the strikers. If they can’t, then the strikers are helped by the poor performance of their replacements. Otherwise, you allow the strikers to hold up the owners for whatever demands they can dream up. And since being a ref in the NFL is a part-time job and they have income from their other employment, they’d be able to shut down the whole season. If you can’t see that you’re simply a fucking nitwit. As it turns out, the refs position is being _helped_ by the poor performance of the replacement refs. Their position improves with every bad call. On the other hand, every week that goes by, the replacements get a little better. This is how a strike _should_ work. Ya dope, ya. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/49 "2012-09-26T07:28:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The problem with this, in a broader sense, is companies can play this game endlessly and it becomes a race to the bottom. There will always be someone without a job willing to do your job for less than you are being paid so they can feed their family. It is a rare individual indeed who can claim they are uniquely qualified to do a given job and thus demand a high wage because almost no one else can do it. > > So, someone out-competes you for your job by being willing to do it for less. Now you cannot feed your family so you agree to do it for less than that guy. > > Round-and-round it goes till you are working for a pittance. You deserve to get paid based on who well you do a job. If other people can early do it for less, you’re overpaid. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/50 "2012-09-26T07:29:03Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Paul Ryan and Scott Walker agree with you. Cite. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/51 "2012-09-26T10:14:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t believe the garbage industry would be able to sustain that. I believe unions understand that excessive demand that cripples the company or industry goes against their own interests as well, and would not demand such exorbitant pay. The garbage industry, overall, can sustain quite a bit of price increase without losing customers. You have to get rid of your garbage. If tomorrow that service costs 2x what it does today, you would suck it up, because you’re not going to open a landfill in your backyard to avoid the price increase. What controls the price is competition, namely the fact that you can get replacement garbage men who can do the job just about as well as today’s garbage men. It’s a necessary job, but one that doesn’t require high skills. I think the NFL was intending to make that point with the refs. They have a necessary job, the games can’t go on without refs, but the skill level of the refs is not important, they can be easily replaced. They failed miserably to make that point. Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as bizarre that the NFL would go ahead with a lockout, when their replacement refs are being drawn from the dregs of the referee pool? I keep hearing about guys who are castoffs from the Lingerie league or referee highschool games, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/52 "2012-09-26T13:20:03Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think the NFL was intending to make that point with the refs. They have a necessary job, the games can’t go on without refs, but the skill level of the refs is not important, they can be easily replaced. They failed miserably to make that point. > Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as bizarre that the NFL would go ahead with a lockout, when their replacement refs are being drawn from the dregs of the referee pool? I keep hearing about guys who are castoffs from the Lingerie league or referee highschool games, WTF? The best alternative refs are the guys calling SEC/Big 10 & 12/PAC 10 games. I presume they’d do an adequate job, albeit with a few goofups regarding differences in timing rules and the like. But they’re bound by contract to their current jobs, plus probably don’t want to burn their chance to advance into the NFL ranks at a later date. So to find replacements the NFL had to reach down low enough to find guys who 1) could ditch their current commitments, and 2) had no realistic aspirations at getting into the top ranks of football refereeing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/53 "2012-09-26T14:42:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You deserve to get paid based on who well you do a job. If other people can early do it for less, you’re overpaid. It’s as simple as that. So you are fine with sweatshops? With your model it is a race to the bottom. Not only in pay but possibly in work conditions too. Why spend money on a safe work environment if workers are interchangeable and there are plenty more to be had? We have seen the results of this mentality in the US in the early 20th century and we still see it in other countries around the world. Are refs really worth $3,000/hour? I bet you could find people willing to ref for $10/hour. High school football refs make $40-100/game. Certainly refs for pro games will be better but are they $8,900 better? Can the pro refs look and see that the owners make massive profits and rather than finding the person who will do the job for the least amount of money suggest that by enabling the owners to make that profit refs should get a piece of that pie? This is the same argument players made. In the 1950’s the average NFL player salary was around $6,000/season (around $54,000 in today’s money). Average NFL salary today is about $2 million ([CITE](http://www.ehow.com/facts_5005953_nfl-salary-history.html)). Clearly the owners can find players to play for less than millions per year. So would you suggest the players are overpaid because people will play for less? Regardless of how much profit the owners make? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/54 "2012-09-26T14:51:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So you are fine with sweatshops? > > With your model it is a race to the bottom. Not only in pay but possibly in work conditions too. Why spend money on a safe work environment if workers are interchangeable and there are plenty more to be had? > > We have seen the results of this mentality in the US in the early 20th century and we still see it in other countries around the world. > > Are refs really worth $3,000/hour? I bet you could find people willing to ref for $10/hour. High school football refs make $40-100/game. > > Certainly refs for pro games will be better but are they $8,900 better? > > Can the pro refs look and see that the owners make massive profits and rather than finding the person who will do the job for the least amount of money suggest that by enabling the owners to make that profit refs should get a piece of that pie? > > This is the same argument players made. In the 1950’s the average NFL player salary was around $6,000/season (around $54,000 in today’s money). Average NFL salary today is about $2 million ([CITE](http://www.ehow.com/facts_5005953_nfl-salary-history.html)). > > Clearly the owners can find players to play for less than millions per year. So would you suggest the players are overpaid because people will play for less? Regardless of how much profit the owners make? You aren’t following any of this discussion are you? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/55 "2012-09-26T15:13:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Are refs really worth $3,000/hour? I bet you could find people willing to ref for $10/hour. High school football refs make $40-100/game. $10 an hour is waaay too much. I bet there are people who would pay the NFL to be allowed to ref. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/56 "2012-09-26T15:14:22Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Non-profit operations and industry are not mutually exclusive. Depends how one defines industry. The provision of education is a service, but is it an industrial service? > [@Shagnasty](#): > > You aren’t following any of this discussion are you? It follows quite closely. There are some arguing for an increase in the capacity for individuals at the top of a hierarchy to exercise their power, others are arguing for a limitation on the disparity of that power. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/57 "2012-09-26T15:20:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > $10 an hour is waaay too much. I bet there are people who would pay the NFL to be allowed to ref. Yes but the NFL is learning that competent refs at that level are a lot more rare than they thought and bad refs are a liability for everyone involved. That is what the regular refs wanted right? That is the same reason they pay players millions instead of going with the cheapest available. There are lots of big guys that can _almost_ play NFL football but very few that have everything it takes. It is the same thing. Getting the best is critical to their business model and they have to pay for that. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/58 "2012-09-26T15:25:25Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > OK, now that you’ve posted this here, and in every other NFL thread I’ve come across this afternoon, do you feel better? Everyone now knows that you’d prefer to call them scabs. Noted. Granted. Understood. Can we move on to the grownup part of the conversation now? That’s a fucked attitude. Scabs refers to people violating a work action and disrespecting the union movement that made our country what it is today. It has nothing to do with “doodyhead” or anything else childish. My Two Cents: Nothing will happen until a player is paralyzed or killed because of a helmet strike. THEN, all of a sudden, the league will commence with the hand-wringing. It’s a violent pastime and the players know the substitute teacher is in the room and it’s time to screw around a lot. Scabs does not equate doodyheads. ETA: I know that **storyteller0910** didn’t use the word “doodyhead” in his/her post, but it was used just after the quoted post in context. I didn’t mean to put that word into **storyteller0910** ’s mouth. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/59 "2012-09-26T15:30:01Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > The refs aren’t on strike. Well, given that I actually don’t watch sports, when someone rants about replacement refs and scabs, I tend to figure there is a strike somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/60 "2012-09-26T15:33:50Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I can’t tell if half of you are functionally retarded or just blindly pro-union. Let me break down in plain language. Listen, if they were doing a good job, then I don’t think they’d be getting piled on but the fact of the matter is that they (like most scabs) don’t do as good a job as the union folks. If you had to buy a car and you knew that one was build by scabs and the other was built in a union shop, which car would you want to drive your family around in. > [@magellan01](#): > > What a crock of bullshit. If people have the right to strike, then the owners of a company have the right to try to replace them. If the replacements can do the job, then fuck the strikers. If they can’t, then the strikers are helped by the poor performance of their replacements. Otherwise, you allow the strikers to hold up the owners for whatever demands they can dream up. And since being a ref in the NFL is a part-time job and they have income from their other employment, they’d be able to shut down the whole season. If you can’t see that you’re simply a fucking nitwit. You do know that the referees aren’t striking right? You know what the difference is right? They were negotiating and the team owners locked them out. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, every week that goes by, the replacements get a little better. not enough. > [@](#): > > This is how a strike _should_ work. Ya dope, ya. This isn’t a strike you half a moron. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The garbage industry, overall, can sustain quite a bit of price increase without losing customers. You have to get rid of your garbage. If tomorrow that service costs 2x what it does today, you would suck it up, because you’re not going to open a landfill in your backyard to avoid the price increase. > > What controls the price is competition, namely the fact that you can get replacement garbage men who can do the job just about as well as today’s garbage men. It’s a necessary job, but one that doesn’t require high skills. And where is the competition for the NFL? > [@](#): > > Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as bizarre that the NFL would go ahead with a lockout, when their replacement refs are being drawn from the dregs of the referee pool? I keep hearing about guys who are castoffs from the Lingerie league or referee highschool games, WTF? I live in the Washington DC market, we are used to NFL team owners being fucking idiots. > [@magellan01](#): > > Cite. [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544\_162-57519926-503544/politicians-weigh-in-on-nfl-ref-lockout/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57519926-503544/politicians-weigh-in-on-nfl-ref-lockout/) > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Yes but the NFL is learning that competent refs at that level are a lot more rare than they thought and bad refs are a liability for everyone involved. That is what the regular refs wanted right? That is the same reason they pay players millions instead of going with the cheapest available. There are lots of big guys that can _almost_ play NFL football but very few that have everything it takes. It is the same thing. Getting the best is critical to their business model and they have to pay for that. Apprently its not. NFL ratings are as good as ever. I keep watching hoping for a rumble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798.md?page=4)