# They are not Replacement Refs...They are SCABS! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 25, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798 "2012-09-25T17:29:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/61 "2012-09-26T16:13:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So you are fine with sweatshops? > > With your model it is a race to the bottom. Not only in pay but possibly in work conditions too. Why spend money on a safe work environment if workers are interchangeable and there are plenty more to be had? > > We have seen the results of this mentality in the US in the early 20th century and we still see it in other countries around the world. > > Are refs really worth $3,000/hour? I bet you could find people willing to ref for $10/hour. High school football refs make $40-100/game. > > Certainly refs for pro games will be better but are they $8,900 better? > > Can the pro refs look and see that the owners make massive profits and rather than finding the person who will do the job for the least amount of money suggest that by enabling the owners to make that profit refs should get a piece of that pie? > > This is the same argument players made. In the 1950’s the average NFL player salary was around $6,000/season (around $54,000 in today’s money). Average NFL salary today is about $2 million ([CITE](http://www.ehow.com/facts_5005953_nfl-salary-history.html)). > > Clearly the owners can find players to play for less than millions per year. So would you suggest the players are overpaid because people will play for less? Regardless of how much profit the owners make? Yup. The owners blew it. There is no reason why athletes should make as much as they do. As far as sweatshops and the like, you do realize that a slew of laws have been passed between then and now, right? Please. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/62 "2012-09-26T16:16:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Yes but the NFL is learning that competent refs at that level are a lot more rare than they thought and bad refs are a liability for everyone involved. That is what the regular refs wanted right? That is the same reason they pay players millions instead of going with the cheapest available. There are lots of big guys that can _almost_ play NFL football but very few that have everything it takes. It is the same thing. Getting the best is critical to their business model and they have to pay for that. Exactly. And that’s the gamble that strikers face. If they are correct and they are undervalued, then the owners get that education. If they are wrong, then the strikers are the ones who benefit from the education. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/63 "2012-09-26T16:17:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Yes but the NFL is learning that competent refs at that level are a lot more rare than they thought and bad refs are a liability for everyone involved. That is what the regular refs wanted right? That is the same reason they pay players millions instead of going with the cheapest available. There are lots of big guys that can _almost_ play NFL football but very few that have everything it takes. It is the same thing. Getting the best is critical to their business model and they have to pay for that. Being good enough to play in the NFL (or any pro-level sport) is certainly a lot of hard work but to some extent it is innate ability. There are loads of people working as hard as Michael Jordan ever did but few if any can match his skill. Jordan just had that indefinable “something” that made him among the best to ever play basketball and very few will ever match that. It can’t be taught. You have it or you don’t. Is refereeing partly innate skill that only a very few possess and everyone else cannot hope to match? I cannot really see how it would be. It is a learned skill and one most anyone should be able to do with enough training and experience. These replacement refs are unused to refereeing at the NFL level. Given time I suspect they could become as good as those they have replaced. More, start firing the really bad ones and keep the good ones and in time you will be left with a good set of refs with a little pain to get there. I seriously doubt the 121 refs (or however many it is) on strike are the only ones on the planet capable of doing this job. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/64 "2012-09-26T16:24:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You do know that the referees aren’t striking right? You know what the difference is right? They were negotiating and the team owners locked them out. Oh, please. The term “scabs” usually refers to workers who replace striking workers. _For the purposes of this discussion_ calling them strikers is fine. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544\_162-57519926-503544/politicians-weigh-in-on-nfl-ref-lockout/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57519926-503544/politicians-weigh-in-on-nfl-ref-lockout/) Can you be good enough to point out the portion where Ryan refers to the replacement refs as “scabs”. That is what I asked for a cite for. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/65 "2012-09-26T16:25:53Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Being good enough to play in the NFL (or any pro-level sport) is certainly a lot of hard work but to some extent it is innate ability. There are loads of people working as hard as Michael Jordan ever did but few if any can match his skill. Jordan just had that indefinable “something” that made him among the best to ever play basketball and very few will ever match that. It can’t be taught. You have it or you don’t. > > Is refereeing partly innate skill that only a very few possess and everyone else cannot hope to match? I cannot really see how it would be. It is a learned skill and one most anyone should be able to do with enough training and experience. > > These replacement refs are unused to refereeing at the NFL level. Given time I suspect they could become as good as those they have replaced. More, start firing the really bad ones and keep the good ones and in time you will be left with a good set of refs with a little pain to get there. > > I seriously doubt the 121 refs (or however many it is) on strike are the only ones on the planet capable of doing this job. That is 100% correct. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/66 "2012-09-26T16:28:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And where is the competition for the NFL? Not so much competition, as substitution. If the cost to run the NFL doubled tomorrow, they would shutter their doors. There’s no way they could get their customers (ticket buyers and advertisers) to pay twice as much for the same product. > [@](#): > > I live in the Washington DC market, we are used to NFL team owners being fucking idiots. I’m a Giants fan, so I’m used to owners being competent. It’s all a bit shocking. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/67 "2012-09-26T16:40:37Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not so much competition, as substitution. If the cost to run the NFL doubled tomorrow, they would shutter their doors. There’s no way they could get their customers (ticket buyers and advertisers) to pay twice as much for the same product. They sell out 90% of their games despite already ridiculously high ticket prices. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/68 "2012-09-26T16:50:55Z")
I generally agree. And think that the player’s union should support the ref’s union. I’m disgusted at the player’s union for crossing the line, and presumably giving up the right to not cross the line. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/69 "2012-09-26T16:56:56Z")
Why? The referees _opted out_ of the players’ union a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/70 "2012-09-26T17:31:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The team owners are locking out the referees to save $65K/year per team. Because giving referees too much money will set a dangerous precedent (NFL referees make about 70% what referees in the NHL make). What a stupid comparison. NHL pay is based on working 73 games per season. If your goal was to point out how over paid NFL refs are as part time employees, you are doing a great job. Give 'em the 30%, make it a full time gig and tell them to shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/71 "2012-09-26T18:10:02Z")
NFL referees work about 35 hours a week during the season, so “part time” is a bit inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/72 "2012-09-26T18:25:09Z")
And the 35 hours doesn’t include the extensive travel and being away from home for days or weeks at a time. “Part” time is a wholly inadequate way to describe their work. That, and the NFL doesn’t want to make most of them full time. If they did, they’d have to give out more in the way of benefits (health plans, for one), which they generally don’t want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/73 "2012-09-26T18:41:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > NFL referees work about 35 hours a week during the season, so “part time” is a bit inaccurate. What do they do for the other 30 hours (assuming a game is 3 hours long plus an hour on either side for whatever)? I am not denying what you say is true (frankly I have no idea). I am just genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/74 "2012-09-26T19:51:48Z")
> [@](#): > > The existence, and fumbling, bumbling work of the replacement officials recalls the famous line by former Browns coach Paul Brown to an overmatched bus driver who couldn’t find his way to the stadium: “I’m not mad at you. I’m mad at the person who hired you.” ~ Jim Ingraham in The Lorain Morning Journal/Willoughby News Herald 9/26/12 The owners are at fault here. This is a lockout, not a strike. The refs were willing to work under the old contract as I understand. The players could refuse to work claiming unsafe working conditions. That would settle the matter quickly. (Assuming it hasn’t been settled as I write this.) ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/75 "2012-09-26T20:26:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What do they do for the other 30 hours (assuming a game is 3 hours long plus an hour on either side for whatever) There’s actually quite a bit of studying and prep work involved. The amount of work varies a bit, depending on the official, with the head ref taking on the most work. Immediately after a game, there’s usually a review among the officiating crew to go over things that happened. Then, there are reports to file with the NFL about what happened during the game. Early in the week, the NFL itself reviews what happened in the game and grades the officials. They will each get a report on their performance and go over it with a league official. Each crew will also usually do a conference call to go over the performance evaluations and to go over things that might come up during the week. This mid-week period is also when each crew will spend some time (individually, of course) studying video on the teams for the next game. It’s best they get familiar with the teams and the type of game they play - run-oriented? pass-oriented? no-huddle? For no-huddle offenses, for example, getting the ball set quickly is important. Or maybe a team uses a lot of 2 back sets and the official might need to be mindful about not getting in the way. Or a team might use an official as a pick or something. The more familiar they are with the teams, the smoother they can keep the game flowing. Then there’s travel for the next game. The crew has to be in town at least 24 hours before the game. The NFL prepares a quiz for the crew before each game (apparently Ed Hochuli has been creating these quizzes for the locked out refs each week so far, so each crew can get into the normal rhythm and stay on top of rules). There will also be a tape prepared ahead of time with something like 20-30 plays from across the league that the NFL uses to highlight certain rules and situations. There’s additional game prep the morning of the game, including brief meetings with both teams, and then the 3 or so hours of the game itself. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/76 "2012-09-26T20:55:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. The term “scabs” usually refers to workers who replace striking workers. _For the purposes of this discussion_ calling them strikers is fine. Scab usually refers to people who cross picket lines but it is also appropriate in this case because they serve the same function as a scab in almost every discernable way. There is a significant difference between strikers and workers who have been locked out while willing to continue working and bargaining in good faith. > [@Hbns](#): > > What a stupid comparison. NHL pay is based on working 73 games per season. If your goal was to point out how over paid NFL refs are as part time employees, you are doing a great job. > > Give 'em the 30%, make it a full time gig and tell them to shut up. You do realize that referees do more than show up at game time and go home after the game right? I’m not saying they are the working poor. I’m saying that I shouldn’t have to put up with this shit because the team owners want to save a few bucks by beating down on the real referees. I wasn’t beating this drum when the lockout started but we shouldn’t be heading into the fourth week of this fucking disaster while the team owners try to parley a microscopically better deal for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/77 "2012-09-26T20:59:12Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > I’m confused, will Iran nuke Israel if a bad call gets made? Will a million Chinese orphans die if the wrong team wins? We’re still talking about a game where people wear tight pants and throw and kick a ball around the field, right? It’s silly to care about something that you yourself aren’t even taking an active part in. Anything you like that I don’t is silly and irrelevant. I of course only think about important issues all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/78 "2012-09-26T20:59:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What do they do for the other 30 hours (assuming a game is 3 hours long plus an hour on either side for whatever)? > > I am not denying what you say is true (frankly I have no idea). I am just genuinely curious. Fuck if I know. Watch film, I suspect. Peter King said it on the radio the other day, and Chris Mortenson said something broadly similar. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/79 "2012-09-26T21:29:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fuck if I know. Watch film, I suspect. Peter King said it on the radio the other day, and Chris Mortenson said something broadly similar. I do know they study film. Every game is reviewed. All calls and non-calls are reviewed. They get critiqued on every game and trained on what they miss. No idea how long that takes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798/80 "2012-09-26T21:35:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is a significant difference between strikers and workers who have been locked out while willing to continue working and bargaining in good faith. A huge difference. I have heard that the difference between the two sides is $3.5 million. In an idustry that makes billions. Each team gets $100 million a year in shared TV revenue alone. The refs didn’t strike. They were bargaining in good faith. They were close enough to work something out. The owners locked them out in an attempt to crush them. I find it reprehensible. And I know I’m more conservative than 99% of the people on this board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-not-replacement-refs-they-are-scabs/635798.md?page=5)