# THEY are the fascists, the traitors and the anti-ameircan liars **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665 "2009-08-07T17:41:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/281 "2009-08-11T17:55:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, he [“does have many Christ-like qualities”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9878895&postcount=13), you know. I heard Dennis Hopper, long time republican, on the view talking about meeting Obama. Hopper’s wife supported Obama and dragged him along. At some point during a hectic campaign day they wound up in an elevator together. Obama expressed his sympathies for Hopper recently losing his mother and spoke briefly of his own mother. Hopper was struck by the presence of mind and sympathy he had during a hectic campaign day. It spoke to him of character. from then on he supported Obama. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/282 "2009-08-11T17:58:52Z")
Somebody _married_ that asshole? Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/283 "2009-08-11T18:08:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And surely you’re aware that some policies that might be put in place would take some time to see the ramifications of, and even longer to undo. But what the heck, right, let’s just try anything. Or are we just to let Obama try anything. Is this like the unnamed distant negative of effects of SSM? No Matter. Reason and a sincere desire to improve our society and solve real problems asks us to intelligently examine the possibilities and make a judgment call based on facts rather than irrational fears. How do you suppose a democracy works? We survived 8 years of Bush and cronies. Surely we can survive health care changes. I’m fine with rational thoughtful conservatives forming real coherent arguments and offering alternatives. Fear mongering and bullshit arguments based on irrational fears don’t help anybody. Look at the Jon Stewart clip. People saying they are afraid of Obama because he’s a socialist. Who told them to be afraid? Glen Beck. When their GOP rep suggests they turn off Beck {in favor of real education and information I suppose} he gets booed. They’d rather believe the crap Beck spouts. That’s more than a wee bit of understandable human bias we all experience. That’s cheerfully riding the flaming chariot of ignorance and fear. Grab the pitchforks and torches and storm the castle. Responsible patriots from either party need to discourage this mess. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/284 "2009-08-11T18:09:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Somebody _married_ that asshole? Jesus. I’m not sure how this relates but yeah. According to Dan Brown it was Mary. Isn’t that a bit off topic? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/285 "2009-08-12T05:58:38Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > That’s right - if you want a book, why not buy it? Ooops, I forgot. You’re the welfare queen. Sitting on your ass and making excuses why you can’t work. Nothing is your fault. My bad. > > I do not think Social Security or Medicare is constitutional, either. So, in your world, an illiterate populace who doesn’t know enough to make money and will inherently make bad decisions because they can’t learn from their mistakes is worth it just so those dirty poor people don’t get their hands on books? A library gives you way more books than you could ever afford. The fourteenth amendment indicates that all the restrictions on the federal government now apply to the states. There is no logical or constitutional reason that a state could do a better job than the federal government. Oh, and your opinions on the constitutionality of anything is irrelevant, as the constitution doesn’t give you the right to judge it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/286 "2009-08-12T09:26:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There is no logical or constitutional reason that a state could do a better job than the federal government. There is a logical reason. The federal government does not make separate laws for South Central Los Angelas and rural Wyoming, even though the needs of the two can be very different. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/287 "2009-08-12T11:09:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, yes he does. So what. So do a lot of other people. He is kindhearted, caring, empathetic, and even tempered. What’s wrong with that? To add to this: If Jesus were alive today he would be called a bleeding heart liberal. Remember according to the Bible he hung around with sinners and was called a Wino. He wasn’t too fond of the letter of the law fundies of his day! ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/288 "2009-08-12T11:21:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > To add to this: If Jesus were alive today he would be called a bleeding heart liberal. Remember according to the Bible he hung around with sinners and was called a Wino. He wasn’t too fond of the letter of the law fundies of his day! And He didn’t seem to have much of an issue with paying one’s taxes. Unless “Render unto Caesar” was a suggestion that the questioner pay his taxes using dead . . . no, better not give the teabaggers ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/289 "2009-08-12T12:53:26Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > And He didn’t seem to have much of an issue with paying one’s taxes. Unless “Render unto Caesar” was a suggestion that the questioner pay his taxes using dead . . . no, better not give the teabaggers ideas. Paying taxes was not the point of the story. The person sent to Jesus was a “spy” (the term used by the NIV) from the Pharisees and scribes, whose mission was to trick Him into saying something that would either get Him arrested by the Romans or else incite a revolt against Him by the Zeolots. The fellow asked Jesus in front of a crowd if people should pay their taxes to Rome. If He answered yes, then the Zealots would have revolted against Him. If He answered no, then the Romans would have arrested Him. But Jesus responded by asking the man to show Him a coin from his purse. The man produced a coin, and Jesus asked him whose likeness was on the coin. The man responded, “Caeser’s”. That’s when Jesus said to give Caesar what belongs to him, and give to God what belongs to Him. The point was that the fellow sent to trick Jesus was carrying around a graven image of a false god (or son of a false god), which was in violation of his own religious law. What Jesus did was to avoid the man’s trap by turning his trick around on him, and pointing out to the crowd that the man was in possession of Caeser’s image. ALL things in Rome belonged ultimately to Caeser. From coins to piles of grain to the sandals on people’s feet. And so, aside from evading the man’s trap, Jesus pointed out that God is not concerned with earthly things, but with heavenly things — like goodness and worship. It was NOT an endorsement of Roman taxation, which was infamous for its burden on the poor. Nor was it an endorsement of taxation in general. It was a reprimand to a particular man who represented people who both taught and disobeyed the Laws of Moses . ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/290 "2009-08-12T13:37:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Somebody _married_ that asshole? Jesus. “SHUT UP! It’s DADDY, you shithead! Where’s my bourbon?” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/291 "2009-08-12T14:32:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > There is a logical reason. The federal government does not make separate laws for South Central Los Angelas and rural Wyoming, even though the needs of the two can be very different. The State of California doesn’t make separate laws for South Central and [insert California boonies here] either. The municipality/county of Los Angeles and Sisterfuck County can make their own different laws, of course, but questions of states’ rights are irrelevant to that process. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/292 "2009-08-12T15:28:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If we define socialism as simply government control of production, then any authoritarian government is “socialist”. The key factor is the people’s control of the government. I find this somewhat ironic, coming in a thread where folks are saying we should just get out of the way of (the current) government, and let them do whatever they (in government) believe is best. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/293 "2009-08-12T16:03:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So, in your world, an illiterate populace who doesn’t know enough to make money and will inherently make bad decisions because they can’t learn from their mistakes is worth it just so those dirty poor people don’t get their hands on books? You had better not be implying this about me. :dubious: > [@](#): > > Oh, and your opinions on the constitutionality of anything is irrelevant, as the constitution doesn’t give you the right to judge it. I believe you are mistaken on this. It IS irrelevant – but that’s because he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. He is entitled to his own opinion, though, no matter how full of shit it is. (Unless, of course, you mean “judge” as in make a legal decision.) **mlees** – it’s only one individual who is saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/294 "2009-08-12T16:42:48Z")
I have heard socialism defined as government **ownership** of the means of production. Government \*\*control \*\*over the means of production is Fabianism. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/295 "2009-08-12T16:45:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The State of California doesn’t make separate laws for South Central and [insert California boonies here] either. The municipality/county of Los Angeles and Sisterfuck County can make their own different laws, of course, but questions of states’ rights are irrelevant to that process. I don’t believe that states have rights, since that’s an hypostatization and therefore a logical fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/296 "2009-08-12T16:47:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I have heard socialism defined as government **ownership** of the means of production. Government \*\*control \*\*over the means of production is Fabianism. No, [Fabianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabianism) is a strategy to achieve socialism by a gradual reformative, rather than abrupt revolutionary, process. What you’re thinking of is probably [_dirigisme._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme) The term applies to, e.g., the process by which Japan insdustrialized at breackneck speed after the Meiji Restoration. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/297 "2009-08-12T17:37:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, [Fabianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabianism) is a strategy to achieve socialism by a gradual reformative, rather than abrupt revolutionary, process. What you’re thinking of is probably [_dirigisme._](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme) The term applies to, e.g., the process by which Japan insdustrialized at breackneck speed after the Meiji Restoration. You’re right. Thanks for that correction, BrainGlutton! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/298 "2009-08-12T17:49:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **mlees** – it’s only one individual who is saying that. Sure. But it’s not the first time I have run up against that type of philosophy of governance here on the SDMB. It’s not an unusual viewpoint, as far as I can tell. I recall being involved in a discussion on McCain’s flipflop on the Immigration Reform proposals two years ago. I was told that in a representitive democracy, our elected leaders should just do what they know is right, even if unpopular (in other words, even against the express wishes of their constituents). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/299 "2009-08-12T17:54:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t believe that states have rights, since that’s an hypostatization and therefore a logical fallacy. Fine. States’ powers. Whatever you want to call them. The point remains, and you are being obtuse. Not gonna lie- I had to look up hypostatization. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/300 "2009-08-12T18:10:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fine. States’ powers. Whatever you want to call them. The point remains, and you are being obtuse. It’s possible that I am obtuse, but I’m not being obtuse in the sense of deliberately being thick headed just because I don’t want to understand you. States do have powers, I’ll grant you that. But then that makes a different point entirely, in my opinion. > [@](#): > > Not gonna lie- I had to look up hypostatization. My fault for grabbing a rather obscure term. I should have said “reification”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=16)