# THEY are the fascists, the traitors and the anti-ameircan liars **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665 "2009-08-07T17:41:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/81 "2009-08-09T01:34:37Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > Name one thing a library offers that isn`t done better by private enterprise. And by private enterprise, I mean Blockbuster. Sure, it's not government welfare/free, but you don`t have to read all the little letters and stuff. One thing? Sure. Who ever heard of a sexy video clerk? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/82 "2009-08-09T01:36:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The repubs have clearly stated that our medical system puts us at a competitive disadvantage. At least during campaigns. The are also aware we pay double for poor coverage. But when someone actually tries to fix it, they rally to prevent it. > It is political. If Obama gets a good health care bill through on his watch, it would be a huge blow to the republican party. They are hanging on by their fingernails to keep from joining the Whigs as a bygone party. But that’s just it…is it really a good bill? It seems like it’s being rushed through Congress in order to get it out of the way rather than examine it piecemeal to ensure that it doesn’t contain language/restrictions that are harmful to the American populace at large. When Obama (or anyone else) says “We need universal healthcare so that people that don’t have it, can’t afford it, etc are covered”…I agree with that. It isn’t about the ideal, it’s about the implementation. The bill is very lengthy, and according to some things I’ve seen, many CongressCritters are going to vote for or against it without even having read it! That’s a travesty! Not to mention that once again, Congress is passing a bill that is exclusionary to themselves. “Congressman, are you subject to this bill like the rest of Americans?” “No.” Fuck that. It’s the same kind of political pandering that allows silver-spooner children to get out of the draft, or any other myriad of issues. I for one do NOT want the govt to FORCE their plan on me should I lapse in coverage, no matter how brief. Going only by what I have read and heard without actually reading the exhaustive text of the bill, please fight my ignorance and set me at ease. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/83 "2009-08-09T01:39:03Z")
The title of this thread is driving me crazy. I keep hearing Gene Wilder: “We are the music-makers,/ and we are the dreamers of dreams.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/84 "2009-08-09T01:50:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What about libraries? [Crafter\_Man doesn’t like libraries](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=498526) You know, books are just so damned cheap!!! And I mean, it’s not like you can’t just go into a book store and ask for access to microfilm and microfiche of back issues of local newspapers going back to the early 1900s, and local documents, important archives, etc. Duh! ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/85 "2009-08-09T02:13:18Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > How do we expand coverage, at a lower total cost? That’s quite the parlor trick, there. Unless Obama really was born in a manger? Have the government do what the private insurers do. Private insurers take a 30+% cut of premiums to do what they do, the hellhole socialist bureaucracy that runs Canada’s single-payer system has a 1% overhead. Allow comparative effectiveness studies to work out which treatments work and which are just expensive bill padders. Have a national medical records system. Prevent healthcare lobbyists from physically wriiting healthcare legislation, as they did with the 2003 Medicare bill. Have an independent body set the costs that hospitals and doctors can charge, not allow hospitals and doctors to do it. EDIT : regulate pharmaceutical companies too. Some prescriptions can cost hundreds of dollars a month, they’d cost a fraction with a single buyer for all meds. European countries are roughly $10 a prescription, free for oldies/schoolkids. Very difficult to do but the national debt, demographics and the explosive cost and profit growth of the current system mean they’ll have to find a way eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/86 "2009-08-09T02:21:06Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > For some time now, [SEIU](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEIU), a services union, has been campaigning for the Obama plan. More organized than the anti-UHC campaigners the OP is talking about, its organizers have been alleged to have packed supposedly open meetings hosted by Democrat politicians with SEIU members. > > Allegedly, a conservative activist at Russ Carnahan’s town hall event was sent to the emergency room last night because of an attack by members of this union. [Video](http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2009/08/07/getting-in-their-faces-st-louis/) of the incident has since surfaced. How do you know he waas attacked by union people? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/87 "2009-08-09T03:11:10Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Have an independent body set the costs that hospitals and doctors can charge, not allow hospitals and doctors to do it. :rolleyes: How about an independent body that sets the costs that grocery stores can charge? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/88 "2009-08-09T03:17:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One thing? Sure. Who ever heard of a sexy video clerk? Other than **lissener**? No, I take it back. NOBODY finds **lissener** \* sexy. - - **lissener** , dude, I often agree with you. I also believe that\* Starship Troopers\* is an anti-fascist satire. It’s just that, well, you are VERY low-hanging fruit, and I need to sometimes grab a cheap shot to make up for my gags nobody gets. Or gets, but don’t think are funny. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/89 "2009-08-09T03:18:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So? You might say the same about Social Security, but we’re still better off than if it had never been enacted. And social security is the case in point usually used. If you think social security is a good thing you are probably pro UHC. If you think that it’s a bad thing you are probably anti-UHC. It’s one of my pet peeves when people try to act like their opponent is dishonest rather than addressing their arguments. If you are pro-socialism in these cases, be so, be so honestly, I am. But there ARE arguments against it and it comes from a different idea of organizing principles, and NOT some dishonest and hateful agenda. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/90 "2009-08-09T03:21:53Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > For some reason economists don’t like employing people to dig holes and fill them up, either. Don’t they? I recall Keynes saying just exactly that is a good idea under some circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/91 "2009-08-09T03:27:57Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > The federal government does not have the authority to have anything to do with healthcare. Why not? UHC is not much bigger a deal, and no different constitutionally, than Social Security or Medicare, the constitutionality of which has not been seriously challenged in living memory. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/92 "2009-08-09T03:31:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t they? I recall Keynes saying just exactly that is a good idea under some circumstances. psst, post 53 :). And **dropzone** , I wasn’t going there–I was just going for the happy thoughts of sexy librarians is all. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/93 "2009-08-09T03:32:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t they? I recall Keynes saying just exactly that is a good idea under some circumstances. To put it in an even more facetious manner, we wouldn’t be rubbing the shock paddles together and yelling “Clear!” if we didn’t have to. Not to say we all haven’t had mornings like that, but its reasonable to make an absurd point to underline a valid principle. Kind of like the opposite of _reductio ad absurdum._ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/94 "2009-08-09T03:36:39Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > How do we expand coverage, at a lower total cost? The same way all the other industrialized democracies with UHC (i.e., all of them) have done it (which they have), I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/95 "2009-08-09T03:38:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Crafter\_Man doesn’t like libraries](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=498526) You know, books are just so damned cheap!! That’s right - if you want a book, why not buy it? Ooops, I forgot. You’re the welfare queen. Sitting on your ass and making excuses why you can’t work. Nothing is your fault. My bad. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why not? UHC is not much bigger a deal, and no different constitutionally, than Social Security or Medicare, the constitutionality of which has not been seriously challenged in living memory. I do not think Social Security or Medicare is constitutional, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/96 "2009-08-09T03:39:06Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Not to mention that once again, Congress is passing a bill that is exclusionary to themselves. “Congressman, are you subject to this bill like the rest of Americans?” > > “No.” Well, of course not. Members of Congress already **have** health insurance, as a job benefit, just like millions of other Americans already have health insurance as a job benefit. The point of UHC is to provide health insurance to the millions more who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/97 "2009-08-09T03:41:02Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > That’s right - if you want a book, why not buy it? Ooops, I forgot. You’re the welfare queen. Sitting on your ass and making excuses why you can’t work. Nothing is your fault. My bad. You dislike libraries? Awesome. Of all the government programs to dislike, that one takes the cake. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/98 "2009-08-09T03:46:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And social security is the case in point usually used. If you think social security is a good thing you are probably pro UHC. If you think that it’s a bad thing you are probably anti-UHC. It’s one of my pet peeves when people try to act like their opponent is dishonest rather than addressing their arguments. If you are pro- **socialism** in these cases, be so, be so honestly, I am. But there ARE arguments against it and it comes from a different idea of organizing principles, and NOT some dishonest and hateful agenda. Dishonest, yes. See post #77. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/99 "2009-08-09T03:46:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, of course not. Members of Congress already **have** health insurance, as a job benefit, just like millions of other Americans already have health insurance as a job benefit. The point of UHC is to provide health insurance to the millions more who don’t. But will they ever be forced to have UHC if they ever find themselves in dire financial straits? Nevermind. Not happening. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/100 "2009-08-09T03:48:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > But there ARE arguments against it and it comes from a different idea of organizing principles, and NOT some dishonest and hateful agenda. It _can_ come from an honest and unhateful agenda. That doesn’t mean it always _does_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=6)