# THEY are the fascists, the traitors and the anti-ameircan liars **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665 "2009-08-07T17:41:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/121 "2009-08-09T12:22:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I appreciate the warning, and I appreciate not being lumped in with the nuts, but… > > The Usual Suspects are always going to assume and assert that all Republicans are as bad as the worst ones. There is plenty of reasoned and principled debate going on about the various Obama initiatives, but the assholes on the Left don’t engage that. Because debating that requires actual thought. > > Easier just to focus on the low-lying fruit and pretend that it is the whole orchard. It’s like arguing Christianity with people based on a Chick tract. > > Not everyone, but fortunately those that do are most of the same people who didn’t want to talk about MoveOn and all that. > > Regards, > Shodan You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing the left of. Snap out of it. Fox news seems to cater to and encourage the fringe rather than spend time with intelligent fact based analysis. Is that the left you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/122 "2009-08-09T12:47:35Z")
As I see it there are extremists on both sides. What amazes me is that there are people who do not want Obama to succeed even though they are cutting off their own noses to save their faces. They complain about socialized medicine but want their religious beliefs forced on others, yell about freedoms but want to control the freedoms in one’s own home and bedroom. It seems they want religion and state to be united as long as it is their religion that rules. Many are mad that Obama got in because he wants all Americans to have rights. Some just hate people that are different. They have the right to voice their opinion but that doesn’t mean the rest of the country has to pay attention to their yelling and their not wanting to hear the whole truth. Like Palin saying Obama would want her child dead, which is a big lie(if she really said that) and is misleading the people; and many just take the word of some bigot and do not bother to check the facts. Or take bits and pieces of a quote and do not bother with what could be taken out of context. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/123 "2009-08-09T13:02:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ve asked this question, and maybe its too theoretical, but its bugging me. We know that the Big Insurance guys fuck people over for a profit, we got that part. But suppose they didn’t, suppose they stopped doing that shit tomorrow…could they still make a profit, or is cynical grubbing essential? > > Which might mean that any attempt to bring in competition while simultaneously cleaning up their act for them will fail, because if they behave like decent citizens, they will go broke. And if there’s no way a corporate entity can be humane and profitable at the same time, then why should we tolerate them at all? If they can’t do the right thing, well, gee, that’s too bad but does that me we pay them gross bucks to do wrong? > > (As far as impoverished Congresscrittes, by and large our representatives are from the finest, and have, historically, been men of substance. IIRC, there were a couple of occasions when a couple fell on embarrassingly hard times, and this made sitting critters squeamish. Long story short, Congresscritters have very, very generous retirement and pensions plans. And sometimes, very involved and concerned parole officers…) I know I’m pretty ignorant about insurance in general. My insurance as always paid for by my employer or my ex’s. I’ve been healthy all my life so never fought any battles with them. I did have an experience with auto insurance where it became obvious they routinely deny valid claims just to discourage those who don’t have the will to fight back. Isn’t the basic principle of insurance profit that you insure lots of people some need health care and lots don’t so you make money? I can see where one major illness can eat up the premiums of many healthy folks. It seems the problem in part is the need to increase profits and show more profit from quarter to quarter. That inevitably means finding ways , ethical or not, to deny claims and weed out those who have ongoing issues that require a payout. I think insurance companies could make a reasonable profit and operate ethically. A single payer plan makes sense to me if everyone has to pay in and we can negotiate prices for procedures and medicine. I’m not in favor of completely subsidizing the poor. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/124 "2009-08-09T13:09:52Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It _can_ come from an honest and unhateful agenda. That doesn’t mean it always _does_. Right. IMO it is patriotism to be seriously concerned about the direction our country is going in , but please look at the issues honestly with as many facts as possible. The issues are too important and affect too many lives to be treating it like a team sport where we want our team to win. I think we need the balance of honesty thoughtful conservatism and liberalism in discussions to find solutions. Angry division and dishonest political positioning from either side hurts us all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/125 "2009-08-09T13:17:58Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I really do wonder how long Democrat Dopers can keep up the pretence that the health reform plans are wildly popular and it’s just a minority of nasty Republican fascists that are opposed to them. At the very least the nation is split in two on them, and a [closer analysis of the polling](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204313604574330442429438938.html) shows Dems are losing ground rapidly on this. I think a lot of people are okay with health reform. What they don’t like is not being told up front what form it will take and a lack of specifics. That’s pretty reasonable. What’s muddying the debate is the barrage of dishonest info being used to flame the fire. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/126 "2009-08-09T13:18:41Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Actually, I would prefer that the new cars the clunkers are to be replaced with were required to get over 30 MPG and be able to use alternate fuels instead of just over 18 MPG … other than that I think it is a good idea. The increase in MPH from cars junked to new ones bought in the program has been a bit over 10. I would have liked more, but it is a step in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/127 "2009-08-09T14:04:26Z")
Seems to me that we spent a fair amount of time during the Bush years with protesters in “free speech zones” and having people wearing t-shirts critical of President Bush being hauled out of events for fear they would disrupt the proceedings. I guess the right wing funsters are trying to prove themselves right. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/128 "2009-08-09T14:12:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You mean Brainglutton’s doublespeak is dishonest, or that someone believes that SOCIAL services are a form of socialism are dishonest? > > Nitpicking connotation is a dishonest tactic. Dismissing people’s real concerns because they don’t use a word in the way you think it should be used, is dishonest. > > It’s a way that you can avoid actually having a debate and just clap your buddies on the back and congratulate yourselves on being smarter than everyone else. > > After all, conservatives are evil dumbasses, why should their opinion matter at all? They just need to shut up and let their betters handle the important stuff. Not when the connotation IS the message. When they say “I don’t like UHC because it’s socialist”, they mean “I don’t like UHC because it’s Communism”, not “I don’t like UHC because it means an increased level of social services in the government, an approach which is within the rights of free people to freely choose but which I happen to disagree with.” ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/129 "2009-08-09T16:47:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There some people who have stupidly accepted the right’s dishonest redefinition of “socialism” as, not merely government ownership of the means of production, but government provision of public services. Theodore Roosevelt is spinning in his grave right about now. > [@](#): > > _by **Theodore Roosevelt** _ > > **Because of things I have done on behalf of justice to the workingman, I have often been called a Socialist.** Usually I have not taken the trouble even to notice the epithet. **I am not afraid of names and I am not one of those who fear to do what is right because some one else will confound me with partisans with whose principals I am not in accord.** Moreover, I know that many American Socialists are high-minded and honorable citizens, who in reality are merely radical social reformers. They are opposed to the brutalities and industrial injustices which we see everywhere about us. When I recall how often I have seen Socialists and ardent non-Socialists working side by side for some specific measure of social or industrial reform, and how I have found opposed to them on the side of privilege **many shrill reactionaries who insist on calling all reformers Socialists, I refuse to be panic-stricken by having this title mistakenly applied to me.** > > . . . > > I have always maintained that our worst revolutionaries today are those reactionaries who do not see and will not admit that there is any need for change. Such men seem to believe that the four and a half million Progressive voters, who in 1912 registered their solemn protest against our social and industrial injustices, are “anarchists,” who are not willing to let ill enough alone. If these reactionaries had lived at an earlier time in our history, they would have advocated Sedition Laws, opposed free speech and free assembly, and voted against free schools, free access by settlers to the public lands, mechanics’ lien laws, the prohibition of truck stores and the abolition of imprisonment for debt; and they are the men who to-day oppose minimum wage laws, insurance of workmen against the ills of industrial life and the reform of our legislators and our courts, which can alone render such measures possible. > > [Theodore Roosevelt; An Autobiography](http://www.bartleby.com/55/13.html) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/130 "2009-08-09T16:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The Usual Suspects are always going to assume and assert that all Republicans are as bad as the worst ones. There is plenty of reasoned and principled debate going on about the various Obama initiatives, but the assholes on the Left don’t engage that. Because debating that requires actual thought. [/QUOTE] May I show you what that would look like had it been posted by someone other than one of the Usual Suspects? > [@not a usual suspect](#): > > The Usual Suspects are always going to assume and assert that all members of the opposition are as bad as the worst ones. There is plenty of reasoned and principled debate going on about the various Obama initiatives, but the assholes on the Left and the Right don’t engage that. Because debating that requires actual thought. When you’re engaged in mindless partisanship, you’re not in a position to criticize others for mindless partisanship. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/131 "2009-08-09T17:06:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > It seems they want religion and state to be united as long as it is their religion that rules. You begin to understand. You see, they have the true religion, and _of course_ its precepts should be enshrined in law. But not those other guys. That’s just silly talk. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/132 "2009-08-09T19:21:11Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > That’s right - if you want a book, why not buy it? Ooops, I forgot. You’re the welfare queen. Sitting on your ass and making excuses why you can’t work. Nothing is your fault. My bad. > > I do not think Social Security or Medicare is constitutional, either. Cite? On what do you base this claim? I’m not on welfare – never have been. Nor am I “sitting on my ass and making excuses.” And I never said “Nothing was my fault”, but I don’t need to go into details of my job search, as it’s none of your business. Nor are the details of my finances. What about VA hospitals? You have something against health care for veterans? For taking care of those who fought for our country? For the military? I can’t remember if it was in this thread that someone mentioned the Tea-Baggers, but [THIS picture](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/Odds%20and%20Ends/20090415-bdk88w2xipi6ub5cugi3cxsdb3.jpg) seems relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/133 "2009-08-09T20:40:30Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > There’s an acceptable level of competition in the grocery industry that means we can leave it to supply and demand to get us cheap prices. There is no such competition in the healthcare insurance, hospital/doctor or pharmaceutical industry, rather a series of local monopolies. An independent body capable of taking into account both the payers and the payees of the industry would be a vast improvement on the current situation where the monopolies literally get to write the legislation that sets the terms and conditions under which they operate their business. If the problem is a lack of “acceptable” competition (according to you), how does it follow that the answer is no competition, as the case would be under UHC? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/134 "2009-08-09T20:52:28Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > If the problem is a lack of “acceptable” competition (according to you), how does it follow that the answer is no competition, as the case would be under UHC? Since there will in fact continue to be competition under UHC, but with another (public) option increasing the competition, what isn’t following is your logic. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/135 "2009-08-09T20:52:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m not on welfare – never have been. > > Nor am I “sitting on my ass and making excuses.” And I never said “Nothing was my fault”, but I don’t need to go into details of my job search, as it’s none of your business. Nor are the details of my finances. If it’s none of our business, why do you keep posting about your sad-sack, woe is me, lack of work, or any other demonstration of basic adult self-sufficiency? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/136 "2009-08-09T20:53:58Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Since there will in fact continue to be competition under UHC, but with another (public) option increasing the competition, what isn’t following is your logic. Where is the competition under single-payer? [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zZ-6ebku3_E/hqdefault.jpg "The Public Plan Deception - It's Not About Choice") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-6ebku3_E) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/137 "2009-08-09T21:06:40Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Where is the competition under single-payer? Where is there provision for single-payer in any versions of health insurance reform under consideration in Congress? Hint: Nowhere. If you’re done with all that straw, I could use it for stall bedding; my horse generates almost as much manure as you. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/138 "2009-08-09T21:07:18Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > If the problem is a lack of “acceptable” competition (according to you), how does it follow that the answer is no competition, as the case would be under UHC? It’s almost impossible to introduce effective competition in some fields of healthcare, after all anyone can open a grocery store but not everybody can be a doctor. Where universal coverage wins is one giant risk pool and nonprofit insurance framework saves a third of costs, one giant buyer for healthcare treatments, products, drugs etc. Walmartizes the buying costs of those things. Paying hospitals and doctors by results instead of per treatment saves pointless bill-padding treatments being carried out and changing the law to allow comparative-effectiveness studies to be able to find out which treatments are cost effective and which are expensive bill-padders would also save a huge chunk of healthcare costs. The United States has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. Over 31% of every health care dollar goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. Because the U.S. does not have a unified system that serves everyone, and instead has thousands of different insurance plans, each with its own marketing, paperwork, enrollment, premiums, and rules and regulations, our insurance system is both extremely complex and fragmented. The Medicare program operates with just 3% overhead, compared to 15% to 25% overhead at a typical HMO. Provincial single-payer plans in Canada have an overhead of about 1%. [http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer\_faq.php](http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php) In 2003 the U.S. will spend $399.4 billion ($1,389 per capita) on health bureaucracy, out of total expenditures of $1660.5 billion ($5,775 per capita). The states could save $286.0 billion dollars in 2003 if they streamlined administration to Canadian levels by adopting a single-payer national health insurance system. The potential savings are equivalent to at least $6,940 for each of the 41.6 million Americans uninsured in 2001. These potential administrative savings are far higher than recent estimates of the cost of covering the uninsured. For instance researchers from The Urban Institute estimate that covering all of America’s uninsured with an “average” private insurance policy would cost $69 billion annually (Hadley and Holahan, Health Affairs, May/June, 2003). Thus, the $286.0 billion in administrative savings could cover all of the uninsured, with $217 billion left over to upgrade coverage for Americans who are currently under-insured - e.g. to offer first dollar drug coverage to seniors. [http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/8800.php](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/8800.php) The report, released by Health Care for America Now (HCAN), uses data compiled by the American Medical Association to show that 94 percent of the country’s insurance markets are defined as “highly concentrated,” [local monopolies] according to Justice Department guidelines. Predictably, that’s led to skyrocketing costs for patients, and monster profits for the big health insurers. Premiums have gone up over the past six years by more than 87 percent, on average, while profits at ten of the largest publicly traded health insurance companies rose 428 percent from 2000 to 2007. [http://healthcareforamericanow.org/s...control\_prices](http://healthcareforamericanow.org/s...control_prices) ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/139 "2009-08-09T21:10:53Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Where is there provision for single-payer in any versions of health insurance reform under consideration in Congress? > > Hint: Nowhere. So was Dear Leader pandering and lying about his intentions during the campaign, or is he pandering and lying about his intentions, now? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/140 "2009-08-09T21:17:21Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It’s almost impossible to introduce effective competition in some fields of healthcare, after all anyone can open a grocery store but not everybody can be a doctor. And even if you can find the ways to compare doctor to doctor, the doctors all have different facilities, different hospitals where they work, different support staff, etc. One of my coworkers has a daughter who just gave birth to 24 week twins. That’s really REALLY early. I don’t know how high the bills are going to go for these two little guys, but they’re going to be extraordinary. Just as a f’rinstance for those who say all healthcare needs is competition, let’s think about the case of these twins and their mom. How should she have gone about comparing doctors and hospitals? She had an emergency C-section. How should she have benefited from competition between hospitals and doctors? After the birth, how should she be comparing facilities? The kids are now at Children’s Hospital in Columbus. Should she move them? How would she know? In short, does anyone have the level of expertise and information necessary to compare doctors and hospitals and facilities and prices? Does anyone have the time or the money to go through identical assessments by all doctors to determine the best fit? Healthcare is the most complex service in the world. Expecting people to be able to compare like-to-like is unrealistic and the penalties are horrendous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=8)