# THEY are the fascists, the traitors and the anti-ameircan liars **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665 "2009-08-07T17:41:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/141 "2009-08-09T21:19:23Z")
Also, **Carol** , here’s how expanding coverage reduces costs: people without health insurance don’t go to the doctor when they should, and preventative care becomes much more expense curative case. Covering them makes their treatment much cheaper, and keeps them from losing their jobs due to illness. > [@Carol Stream](#): > > So was Dear Leader pandering and lying about his intentions during the campaign, or is he pandering and lying about his intentions, now? Oh, stop that bullshit. Nobody thinks of him like that, and besides, what you want isn’t always the same as what you can accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/142 "2009-08-09T21:19:30Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So was Dear Leader pandering and lying about his intentions **during the campaign** , or is he pandering and lying about his intentions, now? Tsk tsk tsk – perhaps you didn’t notice that your smashingly powerful rebuttal is a clip from a comment in 2003? Six years ago? Come back with evidence, any evidence, that he promoted single payer during the campaign, as you allege, sweetie. I’ll be over here, not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/143 "2009-08-09T21:19:36Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So was Dear Leader pandering and lying about his intentions during the campaign, or is he pandering and lying about his intentions, now? If it makes you feel better, you can decide he’s been lying the whole time. That won’t change anything, but if it makes you able to get up in the morning, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/144 "2009-08-09T21:23:21Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So was Dear Leader pandering and lying about his intentions during the campaign, or is he pandering and lying about his intentions, now? He never said he’d try for a single-payer system during the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/145 "2009-08-09T21:31:19Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Tsk tsk tsk – perhaps you didn’t notice that your smashingly powerful rebuttal is a clip from a comment in 2003? Six years ago? Come back with evidence, any evidence, that he promoted single payer during the campaign, as you allege, sweetie. > > I’ll be over here, not holding my breath. Watch the whole video, you stupid cretin. March 2007 is six years ago? When he says he wants to eliminate employer insurance, but it’s going to take a decade, or 15 or 20 years? Where is the choice or competition in THAT? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/146 "2009-08-09T21:34:10Z")
You said “during the campaign” – put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/147 "2009-08-09T21:35:33Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > He never said he’d try for a single-payer system during the campaign. He announced his candidacy in Feb 2007. His remarks about dumping employer insurance, even if it takes 10-20 years, were made in Mar 2007. How is that not during the campaign? Why are you lying? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/148 "2009-08-09T21:36:45Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > You said “during the campaign” – put up or shut up. See post #147. Are you a liar, too? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/149 "2009-08-09T21:46:29Z")
Ah, right. A video that takes a couple of out-of-context snippets from President Obama, interleaves them with statements from other people, and attempts to impute the opinions of those other people to President Obama. Right. How overwhelmingly persuasive. Not. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/150 "2009-08-09T21:49:42Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Ah, right. A video that takes a couple of out-of-context snippets from President Obama, interleaves them with statements from other people, and attempts to impute the opinions of those other people to President Obama. Right. How overwhelmingly persuasive. > > Not. OK NOW YOU ARE LYING. It’s in the video, in Obama’s own words, at 2:16 in the video. In March 2007, which is during the campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/151 "2009-08-09T21:59:06Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > OK NOW YOU ARE LYING. It’s in the video, in Obama’s own words, at 2:16 in the video. In March 2007, which is during the campaign. So he said he didn’t think it could be done immediately. How does that translate into “I don’t want to do it immediately?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/152 "2009-08-09T22:01:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Isn’t the basic principle of insurance profit that you insure lots of people some need health care and lots don’t so you make money? I can see where one major illness can eat up the premiums of many healthy folks. It seems the problem in part is the need to increase profits and show more profit from quarter to quarter. That inevitably means finding ways , ethical or not, to deny claims and weed out those who have ongoing issues that require a payout. > > I think insurance companies could make a reasonable profit and operate ethically. A single payer plan makes sense to me if everyone has to pay in and we can negotiate prices for procedures and medicine. I’m not in favor of completely subsidizing the poor. Here’s how it works. Insurance companies have underwriters, statisticians who compute the probability that they will have to pay a claim of various types. The more people in the pool, the better they can estimate this, and the less chance that an anomalous claim will wipe you out. That’s why a public plan with a big pool would do better. In a not for profit situation, that will be fine, and the insurance company who can predict the best will win. You’ll also win by reducing claims honestly, say by paying for preventative medicine which can reduce big costs, if done well. But if you want to do better than this, clearly you will make more money by denying real claims while maintaining rates, by refusing to cover people with a higher chance of getting ill, by making the process of getting money back painful, or by taking longer to pay claims. If company A does this and gets away with it, it is going to be hard for company B to resist - unless there is regulation, which makes for a level playing field without screwing the customers. The industry will whine about how you are killing their profits, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/153 "2009-08-09T22:02:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So he said he didn’t think it could be done immediately. How does that translate into “I don’t want to do it immediately?” The claim was that he didn’t advocate single payer during the campaign, which he most clearly did. Are you joining the SDMB Liar’s Club, too? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/154 "2009-08-09T22:06:11Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > He announced his candidacy in Feb 2007. His remarks about dumping employer insurance, even if it takes 10-20 years, were made in Mar 2007. How is that not during the campaign? Why are you lying? What he’s doing now is the start of dumping employer insurance, it will take another decade or two. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/155 "2009-08-09T22:09:11Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > What he’s doing now is the start of dumping employer insurance, it will take another decade or two. Which makes your statement “He never said he’d try for a single-payer system during the campaign” a bald-faced lie. You’re not even good at lying, it’s so obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/156 "2009-08-09T22:15:26Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Which makes your statement “He never said he’d try for a single-payer system during the campaign” a bald-faced lie. You’re not even good at lying, it’s so obvious. He didn’t say he would, his healthcare plan was always about altering insurance so that as many people as possible could be covered. He took a lot of criticism from liberals for his healthcare plan not being an attempt to bring in single payer. Obama’s response was that it would have to be incremental, with single payer as the ultimate goal, and that he’d get as far as he could down that road. What part of this don’t you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/157 "2009-08-09T22:17:17Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > The claim was that he didn’t advocate single payer during the campaign, which he most clearly did. Are you joining the SDMB Liar’s Club, too? The claim was: [QUOTE=ETF] Since there will in fact continue to be competition under UHC, but with another (public) option increasing the competition, what isn’t following is your logic. [/QUOTE] …or possibly: [QUOTE=DD] An independent body capable of taking into account both the payers and the payees of the industry would be a vast improvement on the current situation where the monopolies literally get to write the legislation that sets the terms and conditions under which they operate their business. [/QUOTE] I don’t see a claim that Obama didn’t advocate a single payor system. If that makes me a member of your “liar’s club” just show me where I get my decoder ring. In any case, it’s immaterial what he thinks will happen in 15 or 20 years, because \*he won’t be in office then. \* With regard to the more general question of whether a single payor system will create competition, obviously it won’t. Whatever plan Obama implements probably _will_, and if the private insurers are reduced to offering supplemental plans, I have no problem with that. The system in place is not sustainable. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/158 "2009-08-09T22:23:45Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Obama’s response was that it would have to be incremental, with single payer as the ultimate goal, and that he’d get as far as he could down that road. What part of this don’t you understand? Why you are lying about it, is what I don’t understand. Fact: Obama wants single payer. Fact: He said so during the campaign, with the caveat that it would longer than his administration. Your post that he never said he advocated single payer during the campaign is simply not true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/159 "2009-08-09T22:27:27Z")
Well, give that girl a gold star! And a participation ribbon! She’s coming along nicely! See, I told you guys adopting a troll for a pet could work out! ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665/160 "2009-08-09T22:39:15Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Why you are lying about it, is what I don’t understand. > > Fact: Obama wants single payer. > > Fact: He said so during the campaign, with the caveat that it would longer than his administration. > > Your post that he never said he advocated single payer during the campaign is simply not true. He ran on a campaign platform of extending health insurance to as many people as possible. His healthcare plan didn’t mention a single payer system. If you want to play semantics about campaigns and future goals versus actual policy statements, I’m afraid you’re going to have to play with yourself. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-are-the-fascists-the-traitors-and-the-anti-ameircan-liars/505665.md?page=9)