# \["They" as a\] Gender-Neutral \[singular pronoun\]. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058 "2013-11-16T14:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/1 "2013-11-16T14:36:00Z")
I read a comment today in which it was stated that the use of ‘they’ as a gender-neutral pronoun, as in " _A person who eats only what they can for for nothing_", is normal usage now. It went on to say that Americans tend to object to this usage, and I wondered if that was really the case. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/2 "2013-11-16T14:51:31Z")
Based solely on my personal experience, I’d say it’s used quite commonly, and it still sets my ear on edge. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/3 "2013-11-16T14:52:44Z")
I think it’s becoming more and more acceptable. People who aren’t averse to evolving language know that’s just the way it’s going. People who are averse to evolving language have largely been educated that that’s the way it used to be, thanks to grammar websites. People who don’t give two shakes either way don’t factor. So that leaves a group of people who think their fourth grade teacher was the be all end all of grammar education, and the way they said it while growing up was the One Right Way, and anything before or after them is Wrong. Luckily, those people die off every day. 😛 The Chicago Manual still recommends one avoid the pronoun issue if \*possible \*by re-writing the sentence to allow for greater specificity or the use of a plural they…but it’s not (and never has been) verbotten to use they as a singular. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/4 "2013-11-16T14:56:20Z")
In the example that you provided, “A person who eats only what they can for nothing” it seems (and sounds) perfectly normal, IMHO. But that’s just me. 🙂 How _else_ would you make that statement? 😕 ETA: I assume you didn’t really mean to type ‘for’ twice. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/5 "2013-11-16T15:02:38Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > In the example that you provided, “A person who eats only what they can for nothing” it seems (and sounds) perfectly normal, IMHO. But that’s just me. 🙂 > How _else_ would you make that statement? 😕 “A person who eats only that which can be obtained for nothing…” “People who eat only what they can for nothing…” “A person who eats only what he can for nothing…” \<—pisses off feminists. “A person who eats only what he or she can for nothing…” \<—pisses off anyone who loves beautiful language ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/6 "2013-11-16T15:05:21Z")
“One who eats only what one can for nothing” Although the example sentence is a little weird. ---
**Author:** ![notsoheavyd3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@notsoheavyd3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notsoheavyd3)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/7 "2013-11-16T15:40:25Z")
Hell, I use that all the time. I mostly use when what I’m talking about definitely has a gender yet for whatever reason I don’t want that as part of the discussion. So for example if I was writing up a review of an interview on Glassdoor I could use “they” because I’d prefer not to reveal the gender of a particular person I interviewed with. I mean English does have a neutral pronoun, it, but it just sounds far worse to refer to a person as “it”. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/8 "2013-11-16T15:57:06Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I read a comment today in which it was stated that the use of ‘they’ as a gender-neutral pronoun, as in " _A person who eats only what they can for for nothing_", is normal usage now. It as been normal usage pretty much forever, longer, certainly, than there has been a vocal feminist movement to object to the generic “he” (so it is not really about that). > [@bob\_2](#): > > It went on to say that Americans tend to object to this usage, and I wondered if that was really the case. It is not Americans who object to it, it is Grammar Nazis (American or otherwise) who want to privilege what they see as the “logic” of the language (although there is nothing logical about languages) over not only normal, common usage, but also communicative effectiveness and euphony. ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/9 "2013-11-16T16:09:58Z")
Well yes, I am a grammar Nazi, but it doesn’t seem so farfetched to see that “they” is plural. However, I don’t object to the use of “they” as singular in speech. I do want more “proper” usage in writing. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/10 "2013-11-16T16:21:39Z")
Title edited to better indicate subject. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/11 "2013-11-16T16:38:49Z")
> [@kayT](#): > > Well yes, I am a grammar Nazi, but it doesn’t seem so farfetched to see that “they” is plural. However, I don’t object to the use of “they” as singular in speech. I do want more “proper” usage in writing. If it’s proper enough for this hack, it’s proper enough for me. 😉 [QUOTE=William Shakespeare, A Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3] There’s not a man I meet but doth salute me As if I were their well-acquainted friend [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/12 "2013-11-16T17:12:54Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It as been normal usage pretty much forever, longer, certainly, than there has been a vocal feminist movement to object to the generic “he” (so it is not really about that). Many standard references allow for the use of singular _they/their_ (although this is not universal): [Oxford dictionaries.](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/he-or-she-versus-they) > [@](#): > > You can use the plural pronouns ‘they’, ‘them’, ‘their’ etc., despite the fact that, technically, they are referring back to a singular noun: > > If your child is thinking about a gap year, they can get good advice from this website. > A researcher has to be completely objective in their findings. > > Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16th century. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing. [Merriam Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they) > [@](#): > > The use of they, their, them, and themselves as pronouns of indefinite gender and indefinite number is well established in speech and writing, even in literary and formal contexts. This gives you the option of using the plural pronouns where you think they sound best, and of using the singular pronouns (as he, she, he or she, and their inflected forms) where you think they sound best. [New York Times _On Language_](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=0) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, many great writers — Byron, Austen, Thackeray, Eliot, Dickens, Trollope and more — continued to use they and company as singulars, never mind the grammarians. In fact, so many people now use they in the old singular way that dictionaries and usage guides are taking a critical look at the prohibition against it. R. W. Burchfield, editor of The New Fowler’s Modern English Usage, has written that it’s only a matter of time before this practice becomes standard English: “The process now seems irreversible.” Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed.) already finds the singular they acceptable “even in literary and formal contexts,” but the Usage Panel of The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed.) isn’t there yet. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/13 "2013-11-16T17:15:50Z")
That usage is not remotely new. There have been numerous other threads on the SDMB concerning this exact topic. Cecil has mentioned it as well. Feel free to consult those sources. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/14 "2013-11-16T17:15:52Z")
Actually, the [singular they](http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/) has been common since the middle ages. Chaucer not only used it, he also had characters who “axed” questions. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/15 "2013-11-16T17:33:38Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Actually, the [singular they](http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/) has been common since the middle ages. Chaucer not only used it, he also had characters who “axed” questions. One can hardly hold Chaucer up as a good example of modern language use: ‘‘Love is a thyng as any spirit free. Wommen, of kynde, desiren libertee, And nat to been constreyned as a thral; And so doon men, if I sooth seyen shal.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/16 "2013-11-16T17:42:51Z")
Way to miss the point, Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/17 "2013-11-16T17:57:36Z")
Incidentally, [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=705536) [are](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=694740) [a](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=654982) [few](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=392679) [other](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=277550) [threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=196889) about this exact topic on the SDMB. The argument has popped up tangentially in other threads as well. [Here](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/750/is-there-a-gender-neutral-substitute-for-his-or-her) is our great and most knowledgeable master’s take on the “issue.” And [here](http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/they.html) is what “[Common Errors in English Usage](http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/errors.html)” has to say about this topic: > [@Common Errors in English Usage](#): > > Using the plural pronoun to refer to a single person of unspecified gender is an old and honorable pattern in English, not a newfangled bit of degeneracy or a politically correct plot to avoid sexism (though it often serves the latter purpose). People who insist that “Everyone has brought his own lunch” is the only correct form do not reflect the usage of centuries of fine writers. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/18 "2013-11-16T18:01:10Z")
I find that sometimes using singular they, them, or their feels natural, and sometimes it sounds wrong. I haven’t spent time trying to determine what criteria my brain is using to make the distinction, though. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/19 "2013-11-16T19:00:13Z")
I find I get different bees in my bonnet as I get older. At one time I would have railed about a split infinitive, but not these days. There are some things that annoy me - the grocer’s apostrophe is the worst, but I have a new pet hate now - ‘for free’. It’s everywhere and it really annoys me beyond rationality. What’s wrong with just ‘free’? ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/20 "2013-11-16T19:35:23Z")
Singular “they” sure sounds smoother than gender neutral pronouns like “sie”, and at the same time accomplishes not addressing the gender of the person. For completeness perhaps we should all agree on: _“A person who eats only what he (if he has a penis and is cisgender) or she (if she has a vagina and is cisgender) or he (if he has a vagina and is transgender) or she (if she has a penis and is transgender) or sie (if that’s what the person prefers and the person has hip friends) or they (if the person doesn’t want to steer the conversation toward genitals but also doesn’t want to make anything sound cumbersome) can for for nothing.”_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058.md?page=2)