# \["They" as a\] Gender-Neutral \[singular pronoun\]. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 16, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058 "2013-11-16T14:36:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/61 "2013-11-19T04:27:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Right or wrong, they will chalk these things up as ignorance on the writers part. Good luck telling your professor that you didn’t deserve the mark down because Chaucer did the same thing. It doesn’t matter if it was done that way 300 to 1000 years ago; what matter is what was done 40 to 50 years ago when modern rules were written. Of course, you don’t have to fall back on Chaucer or Shakespeare. There are many respected modern references, such as the Oxford Dictionary and Merriam-Webster cite previously, that accept the usage. The “modern rules” are these ones, the ones that are being written today. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/62 "2013-11-19T05:15:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > As an M.A. in ESL, you should know better than “prof told me so.” Sorry, I only have a B.A. in English, so I guess you win. :rolleyes: > > Provide with me an actual citation, since you are making the claim, that the APA style guide (which is used for academic publications in the social sciences) encouraged the singular use of “they” as a gender-neutral pronoun. My profs in college in my psychology classes required using APA and did not accept the gender neutral _they_, and I do not recall the stylebook at the time encouraging its use. We generally tried to recast the sentence in the plural, if possible. I cannot find an actual copy of the APA publication manual, but I can find several written sources from academic institutions that reference the manual and its position. That’s a little bit better than “prof told me so.” > > But, yes, the actual source would be best. But you’re the one making the claim, and it doesn’t jibe with my memory of writing papers with APA style, nor does any academic source currently seem to indicate that APA encourages it. > > (Note: I am not against the use of singular _they_. I am all for it. But I’m not sure why the APA is even figuring into this discussion, as it’s a bit of a niche style/usage guide for English.) Actually, yes. If you have a degree in X, what i say in degree Y is wrong. If i had a degree in accounting, what we disagreed on in Shakespeare would automatically default to you. An English lit degree, of which i also have, is not expertise in discussing grammar. That you found it on the Internet is cute, yet not worthy of this discussion. The two sources you did find, while they may have excited you on a personal level, cannot be used in a discussion on this level. For example, your first cite used someone who had a multiple of personal titles that had absolutely no meaning in academic discussion. I can give myself the title of “super grammar man of Massachusetts” with equivalent weight. > [@Lasciel](#): > > I’m not **Superhal** , but I just got done with my masters in library science, using APA 6th ed for the last year or so, and “they” as gender-neutral singular was NOT an option. > > Oh, grr, ninjaed by \*\*puly \*\*while I was Googling for a cite. Well done, **pulykamell**. This does not prove i was right or wrong. I clearly stated that this was told to me 10 years before what you heard. If you listed sources, i would have checked them. Both of you and anybody else reading this: at SDMB, someone who answered in GQ has both the credentials and expertise to do so. Saying they are wrong requires more than a cursory google. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/63 "2013-11-19T15:32:57Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Both of you and anybody else reading this: at SDMB, someone who answered in GQ has both the credentials and expertise to do so. > > Saying they are wrong requires more than a cursory google. Exactly. This is GQ. Making unsubstantiated claims like “It was a rule change in the mid90s by the apa to try to eliminate sexist speech” and then trying to back it up with absurd appeals to authority and “prof told me so” arguments is laughable. Look, I have posted the actual text from the current edition of the APA style book. That’s as official a source as possible for GQ. You have presented no evidence whatsoever for your claim. ’ ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/64 "2013-11-19T15:44:35Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > This does not prove i was right or wrong. I clearly stated that this was told to me 10 years before what you heard. If you listed sources, i would have checked them. That’s not how GQ rolls. As frustrating as it may be, if you want us to seriously consider your claim that the singular they was an invention of the APA to counteract sexism, then you need something official from the APA saying as much as well as a convincing explanation as to the apparent existence of the singular they long before the APA was a thing. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/65 "2013-11-19T16:12:19Z")
And, by the way, I do have a 4th edition of the PMAPA lying around somewhere, since I used it in college in the mid 90s for my psychology papers (I was briefly a psych major). It’s somewhere in my huge stack of books. It’s the only edition of the APA to come out in the mid-90s, so it must be the one **Superhal** is talking about. I don’t have time right now, but in the next few days I’ll see if I can find it and see what it says. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058/66 "2013-11-24T03:08:34Z")
I should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but just in case anyone gives a damn, I did dig up the 4th edition of the Publication Manual of the APA (1994), and, unsurprisingly, it does not anywhere recommend the use of the singular _they_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-as-a-gender-neutral-singular-pronoun/674058.md?page=3)