# They Backed into my car and want to settle privately **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 6, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332 "2015-03-06T02:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/61 "2015-03-07T02:20:48Z")
Some years ago, I had an attack of the stupids and caused minor damage to another vehicle in a parking lot. Since it was a parking lot, the police weren’t going to respond anyway; I just gave the guy my contact info and that of my insurance agent. When he called my agent to file a claim, **my insurance agent** suggested he call me back and settle it privately without involving them (as we did, for $300). I certainly had nothing to hide, but apparently the insurance company was no more thrilled at processing the paperwork on a petty claim than I was at getting my insurance dinged. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/62 "2015-03-07T02:55:25Z")
Well exactly. I am saving my insurance for stuff I can’t afford. I’m legally required to buy it in case I cause damage outside of my ability to pay. Why get those turkeys involved unless I’m in that situation? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/63 "2015-03-07T04:52:56Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > … insurance that he’ll pay… Hello! He wanted to avoid insurance. Just tear his wife’s blouse, as a _reminder_. No need to involve insurance. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/64 "2015-03-07T18:38:58Z")
I’m glad things seemed to have worked out for the OP, but my own SOP in such matters in which the other driver is obviously at fault is to **always** call the police, and **always** go through my own insurance company for repairs. The police often don’t want to come unless someone is injured. When they ask if anyone is injured, I honestly answer, “I don’t know; maybe.” (After all, how do I know if anyone is injured? Also, it’s often not immediately obvious, especially with neck and back injuries.) This has always worked, and they come. My reasons for this is all the ways I have been burned in the past: Anecdote #1: Years ago, I had a green light, and a car coming from the opposite direction illegally turned left in front of me. I tried to avoid the car, but clipped the rear of his car. There were witnesses, but none were willing to give their contact info. This was before the time of cell phones, so there was no way to contact police. We exchanged info, and I filled out a police report later that day. I then found out the other guy claimed that I ran a red light, and that it was my word against his. He didn’t even have valid insurance. What’s worse, _my_ insurance company paid to fix _his_ car, and then raised my rates. Solution: **always** call the police. People are less likely to lie to a cop at the scene of the accident, and have less time to concoct a false version of events. Also, the officer can speak to any witnesses present (before they leave) while the events are fresh in their mind. Anecdote #2: A car backed into my parked car, crushing in the driver’s side door. The other driver said that his insurance would take care of everything. Dealing with the other person’s insurance carrier was an absolute nightmare. They agreed to pay for a rental car, then tried to renege after the fact and make me pay. They disputed the repair costs, repeatedly. I spent hours on the phone trying to get things resolved. Then I found out from my insurance company that it’s far easier to go through my own carrier (who is interested in keeping me as a customer, as opposed to a company I have no relationship with), than to deal with the other person’s insurance company. My insurance company is happy to take care of everything, then recoup their costs from the other driver’s insurance (or sue the other driver, if he doesn’t have insurance.) Far fewer headaches this way. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/65 "2015-03-07T19:16:21Z")
> [@andrea\_green](#): > > \*\*Funny update: \*\*I just received a kind offer to join Mr. CarSmasher and his family for a traditional shabbat dinner in the near future. I think I’ll take him up on it, sounds like a pleasant and interesting conclusion to this episode. This reminds me of a story I read recently about [Why Louis Armstrong wore a Star of David](http://www.jewishjournal.com/sacredintentions/item/did_you_know_that_louis_armstrong_wore_a_star_of_david). I know virtually nothing about Judaism, but the link is to a Jewish site so I’ll assume it’s correct. > [@](#): > > Louis Armstrong was born August 4, 1901, in a section of New Orleans that was so violent that it was called the battlefield. His father was a day laborer named William Armstrong, and left the family and his children rarely saw him. His mother was 16 years old when she had him. He grew up in such poverty that he often didn’t know when his next meal was going to come. > > The Karnofskys were a financially poor but loving family towards Armstrong. They provided a bed, food and shelter, and even included him in their Shabbat dinners. Armstrong had helped the father with his horse-and-wagon hauling business delivering coal. Each day as they passed a particular store, Armstrong pointed to an old cornet in the window, a cornet he couldn’t hope to buy but longed to play. One day, Mr. Karnofsky stopped at the store, walked in and came out with the cornet. He handed it to Armstrong and told him he could work it off. They helped him to purchase his very first instrument. The original article I read, which I can’t find since it was posted on Facebook, mentioned something about a Jewish tradition of doing good deeds to make the world a better place. ‘Paying it forward’, as it were. I wish I could remember the name of it. Anyway, the offer of a Shabbat dinner reminded me of this story about ‘Satchmo’. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/66 "2015-03-07T21:19:46Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The police often don’t want to come unless someone is injured. When they ask if anyone is injured, I honestly answer, “I don’t know; maybe.” (After all, how do I know if anyone is injured? Also, it’s often not immediately obvious, especially with neck and back injuries.) This has always worked, and they come. In my experience, the response is, “well, find out. We’ll hold while you ask if anybody wants an ambulance.” No ambulance callout = no cops. Encouraging somebody to request an ambulance just so the cops come, however, can backfire quite badly, transforming a simple fender-bender into a major personal injury claim. (I’ve a relative who was an insurance adjuster for many years–fraud on such claims is apparently rampant, and neck/back injuries are notoriously hard to prove OR disprove.) > [@robby](#): > > People are less likely to lie to a cop at the scene of the accident, and have less time to concoct a false version of events. Also, the officer can speak to any witnesses present (before they leave) while the events are fresh in their mind. Um, have you discussed this with a cop, to get their opinion? The LEOs of my acquaintance say people lie quite readily to the cops, and in fact may be _more_ likely to do so just to get their version down officially. Unless the response time is very short, the witnesses are going to be gone anyway. That’s not to discourage anybody from calling the cops if the cops are needed, but I don’t see the same great benefits you do for minor accidents. As far as anecdote 2, if insurance is involved you want to be dealing with your company, yes. At that point, any advantage to handling it privately is gone anyway, so you’ve nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/67 "2015-03-07T21:40:45Z")
**robby** , you realize that both your anecdotes are bad experiences from when you DID involve the insurance companies? Kind of strange way to show why you always go through insurance. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/68 "2015-03-10T04:22:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > **robby** , you realize that both your anecdotes are bad experiences from when you DID involve the insurance companies? Kind of strange way to show why you always go through insurance. Sorry, I may not have been clear. If the other driver was at fault, I would never consider _not_ involving the insurance companies. I just don’t trust that anyone would make good on any promise to reimburse me personally. My first anecdote was related to why I always call the police (assuming the other driver is clearly at fault). My second anecdote was related to why I always go through my own insurance company, and let them deal with the other driver’s insurance (again, assuming the other driver is clearly at fault). Every accident I’ve been in since that of the second anecdote (which occurred nearly 20 years ago) has been much less of a hassle for me. My insurance company takes care of everything. Assuming the other driver has valid insurance, I don’t even get charged my deductible. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/69 "2015-03-10T04:51:30Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > In my experience, the response is, “well, find out. We’ll hold while you ask if anybody wants an ambulance.” No ambulance callout = no cops. I can honestly say I’ve never gotten that response. I’ve actually never had much trouble getting the 911 operator to send the police. YMMV. > [@slash2k](#): > > Encouraging somebody to request an ambulance just so the cops come, however, can backfire quite badly, transforming a simple fender-bender into a major personal injury claim. (I’ve a relative who was an insurance adjuster for many years–fraud on such claims is apparently rampant, and neck/back injuries are notoriously hard to prove OR disprove.) I certainly agree that I would never request an ambulance unnecessarily. That being said, you bring up another good reason to get a cop to come even for minor accidents: they’ll document the condition of everyone involved. It may make it that much less likely that someone will claim some devastating injury if they were walking around right after the accident (though I’m aware that many injuries manifest later). However, note that I’d only be calling for a cop if the other driver was clearly at fault, so any “major personal injury claim” wouldn’t be my problem, anyway. > [@slash2k](#): > > Um, have you discussed this with a cop, to get their opinion? The LEOs of my acquaintance say people lie quite readily to the cops, and in fact may be _more_ likely to do so just to get their version down officially. Unless the response time is very short, the witnesses are going to be gone anyway. The one time I didn’t have a cop present, the other driver lied when he reported the accident. Since then, I’ve always called the cops (or someone else has). I watched a person (who sideswiped my car as I was stopped at a red light) start to lie to a police officer after the accident, only to get tangled up in inconsistencies, and be immediately contradicted by a witness. The cop promptly ticketed the other driver. If that cop hadn’t been present, it would have turned out just like my first anecdote above. > [@slash2k](#): > > As far as anecdote 2, if insurance is involved you want to be dealing with your company, yes. At that point, any advantage to handling it privately is gone anyway, so you’ve nothing to lose. What advantage is there with handling an accident privately, anyway? All I see are potential downsides. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/70 "2015-03-10T16:36:26Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I can honestly say I’ve never gotten that response. I’ve actually never had much trouble getting the 911 operator to send the police. YMMV. Yeah, I live in and near jurisdictions where there can be more incidents than officers available to respond, so 911 sometimes has to say, “if nobody’s hurt and it’s not a hit-and-run, we are Not Responding, so exchange information with each other and then fill out an accident report at headquarters tomorrow if you need one.” If the incident is on private property and nobody wants an ambulance, then you’d better hope it’s a slow day for the LEOs if you want one. > [@robby](#): > > I certainly agree that I would never request an ambulance unnecessarily. That being said, you bring up another good reason to get a cop to come even for minor accidents: they’ll document the condition of everyone involved. It may make it that much less likely that someone will claim some devastating injury if they were walking around right after the accident (though I’m aware that many injuries manifest later). > > However, note that I’d only be calling for a cop if the other driver was clearly at fault, so any “major personal injury claim” wouldn’t be my problem, anyway. You do realize you are contradicting yourself here, right? Your need to document the condition of everybody involved is far greater when the accident is (or might be) your fault. If the personal injury claim won’t be your problem, you have no need to care what kind of injuries the others might claim. I will also point out that the standard accident report in my jurisdiction has only a handful of choices for documenting the condition of persons in the vehicle (Dead, Disabling injury, Non-disabling injury, Possible injury, Not injured, Unknown), and it is very rare that the cops will make any further notes about medical condition unless there’s a fatality or potential fatality, or somebody gets arrested (DUI, etc.). Absent these conditions, “So-and-so was walking around at the scene” is **not** going to be in the official report (and by the time the claimed injury gets to court a couple of years later, the cops won’t be able to remember this accident scene as distinct from all of the others). If somebody says, “ow, I hurt,” with nothing evident, the cops will check the box for Possible injury and move on without any kind of notation as to what that injury might be or what part hurts. Your jurisdiction may vary. > [@robby](#): > > The one time I didn’t have a cop present, the other driver lied when he reported the accident. Since then, I’ve always called the cops (or someone else has). I watched a person (who sideswiped my car as I was stopped at a red light) start to lie to a police officer after the accident, only to get tangled up in inconsistencies, and be immediately contradicted by a witness. The cop promptly ticketed the other driver. If that cop hadn’t been present, it would have turned out just like my first anecdote above. My experience is that a person who can tell a lie and convince an insurance company can tell a lie and convince a cop just as easily. Insurance adjusters look for inconsistencies too. YMMV > [@robby](#): > > What advantage is there with handling an accident privately, anyway? All I see are potential downsides. Money. Compare the cost of settling a minor fender-bender privately with the cost of losing an accident-free insurance discount or getting your rates jacked up for the next three to ten years (depending on company), plus paying the deductible. If the damage is in fact minor, letting your insurance pay might easily cost you several times as much as just paying yourself. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/71 "2015-03-10T18:37:37Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > …You do realize you are contradicting yourself here, right? Your need to document the condition of everybody involved is far greater when the accident is (or might be) your fault. If the personal injury claim won’t be your problem, you have no need to care what kind of injuries the others might claim. Yes, which is why I wrote, “However, note that I’d only be calling for a cop if the other driver was clearly at fault, so any ‘major personal injury claim’ wouldn’t be my problem, anyway.” :rolleyes: > [@robby](#): > > …What advantage is there with handling an accident privately, anyway? All I see are potential downsides. > [@slash2k](#): > > …Money. Compare the cost of settling a minor fender-bender privately with the cost of losing an accident-free insurance discount or getting your rates jacked up for the next three to ten years (depending on company), plus paying the deductible. If the damage is in fact minor, letting your insurance pay might easily cost you several times as much as just paying yourself. As I’ve stated repeatedly, I get the insurance company involved _if the other driver is clearly at fault_. Why do I care about the other guy’s rates? If the other driver is at fault, my rates are not affected. If the other driver is at fault, and has valid liability insurance, my deductible is not invoked. If the other driver does not have valid liability insurance, my insurance pays under my uninsured motorist coverage, and does charge a deductible. In this one instance, I might come out ahead by settling the matter privately, but I would be loathe to trust some loser who didn’t even have liability insurance. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/72 "2015-03-10T19:32:48Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, which is why I wrote, “However, note that I’d only be calling for a cop if the other driver was clearly at fault, so any ‘major personal injury claim’ wouldn’t be my problem, anyway.” :rolleyes: Why are you rolling your eyes? You previously stated: > [@robby](#): > > you bring up another good reason to get a cop to come even for minor accidents: they’ll document the condition of everyone involved. It may make it that much less likely that someone will claim some devastating injury if they were walking around right after the accident (though I’m aware that many injuries manifest later). If you are worried about somebody claiming some devastating injury such that you need the cops to document, then you are the one (potentially) at fault, in which case you would not be calling the cops. 😕 > [@robby](#): > > As I’ve stated repeatedly, I get the insurance company involved _if the other driver is clearly at fault_. Why do I care about the other guy’s rates? However, not everything is always clearly somebody else’s fault. Your initial question was “What advantage is there with handling an accident privately, anyway?”; one answer to the question you asked is that if you are or could be held even partially liable, there may be financial advantages to handling it privately. Similarly, there may be financial advantages for the other driver to handle it privately even if s/he has valid insurance. Sometimes it’s okay to be nice to other people and accommodate their desires. If you do not carry full coverage on your own vehicle, you may find your own insurer to be less than enthusiastic in handling your claim even if somebody else is at fault and can be made to pay. Also, no matter who is at fault, a quick cash settlement the same day or within a couple of days may be more convenient and less time-consuming than having to get estimates, deal with your adjuster, etc. That is of course dependent on your insurer’s policy and preferred providers. Also, in this jurisdiction, if the cops did not respond to the accident and you want to involve insurance, you need a police report, which means you must physically go to the police station during the Records Division’s regular business hours (i.e., not evening or weekend). If that’s not convenient for your schedule, too bad so sad. Finally, if you willing/able to do your own repair, you may actually come out ahead on the deal. For example, if the shop will replace a broken headlight assembly for $X, you may be able to buy the parts and do the labor yourself for one-half X and settle with the other driver for 3/4 X, pocketing the difference. You can’t do that if either party’s insurance is paying the shop directly. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/73 "2015-03-10T19:44:22Z")
> [@andrea\_green](#): > > \*\*Funny update: \*\*I just received a kind offer to join Mr. CarSmasher and his family for a traditional shabbat dinner in the near future. I think I’ll take him up on it, sounds like a pleasant and interesting conclusion to this episode. If all settles out for the best, I’d jump on the offer, provided Mr. CarSmasher knows I’m not Jewish but willing to learn about the culture and religion. Besides, never turn down an opportunity to make new friends. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/74 "2015-03-11T06:10:22Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > …If you are worried about somebody claiming some devastating injury such that you need the cops to document, then you are the one (potentially) at fault, in which case you would not be calling the cops. 😕 I guess I’m not being very clear (and possibly contradictory as well, I admit), because sometimes it comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. In my experience, if the other driver is clearly at fault, the presence of a cop has been extremely helpful. If I were at fault, I would not seek to call the police, _unless_ the other driver seemed like the type who might be likely fake an injury (or otherwise do something shady or crazy or was threatening to sue me). Then I probably would. Finally, as you subsequently stated, not everything is always clearly somebody else’s fault, so you have to take that into account as well. > [@slash2k](#): > > …However, not everything is always clearly somebody else’s fault. Your initial question was “What advantage is there with handling an accident privately, anyway?”; one answer to the question you asked is that if you are or could be held even partially liable, there may be financial advantages to handling it privately. > > Similarly, there may be financial advantages for the other driver to handle it privately even if s/he has valid insurance. Sometimes it’s okay to be nice to other people and accommodate their desires. > > If you do not carry full coverage on your own vehicle, you may find your own insurer to be less than enthusiastic in handling your claim even if somebody else is at fault and can be made to pay. > > Also, no matter who is at fault, a quick cash settlement the same day or within a couple of days may be more convenient and less time-consuming than having to get estimates, deal with your adjuster, etc. That is of course dependent on your insurer’s policy and preferred providers. Also, in this jurisdiction, if the cops did not respond to the accident and you want to involve insurance, you need a police report, which means you must physically go to the police station during the Records Division’s regular business hours (i.e., not evening or weekend). If that’s not convenient for your schedule, too bad so sad. > > Finally, if you willing/able to do your own repair, you may actually come out ahead on the deal. For example, if the shop will replace a broken headlight assembly for $X, you may be able to buy the parts and do the labor yourself for one-half X and settle with the other driver for 3/4 X, pocketing the difference. You can’t do that if either party’s insurance is paying the shop directly. Personally, I would much rather deal with my insurance company, and I have full coverage on my vehicles. One issue I’ll note with dealing with a person privately is that body shops almost always find additional work after they start, and have to add to the additional estimate. So you’d have to go back to the other driver. What if they refuse to pay the additional cost? It’s a little late at that point to go to the insurance company, because the adjuster will not be able to prepare the necessary estimate. Also, many body shops use negotiated rates when dealing with insurance companies; if no insurance is involved, you’re paying the body shop’s normal time and material rates. What if it’s only after the work starts that you realize that the other driver’s check has bounced? What if the expected “quick cash settlement” turns into days or weeks? Finally, regarding your final point, it’s possible to get an estimate from an insurance company, and pocket the money instead of getting the repairs. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332/75 "2015-03-11T15:50:15Z")
> [@robby](#): > > What if it’s only after the work starts that you realize that the other driver’s check has bounced? What if the expected “quick cash settlement” turns into days or weeks? I wouldn’t take a check, and if the cash doesn’t manifest quickly, I can still file the police report and go for insurance. > [@robby](#): > > Finally, regarding your final point, it’s possible to get an estimate from an insurance company, and pocket the money instead of getting the repairs. Not if you’ve got a lien on the vehicle (in my state, the check is automatically payable to the lienholder AND you jointly, and the lienholder is somewhat unlikely to allow you to avoid fixing it). Also, if the insurance company is aware you have previous damage, any subsequent claim will get additional scrutiny, and unrepaired previous damage can be grounds for denial, or even loss of collision coverage. (I spoke only of fixing it yourself, not leaving it unrepaired.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-backed-into-my-car-and-want-to-settle-privately/714332.md?page=3)