# They caught the sniper! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 24, 2002, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676 "2002-10-24T13:22:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/41 "2002-10-24T19:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RTFirefly_ > But I don’t think it was about money. I think the money could be part of the whole mix. These guys appear to have a high opinion of themselves. So they figure they can kill without getting caught. Not only can they kill, but they’ll run circles around the cops by actually getting money out of the deal because there’s no way the cops are smart enough to catch them. Then, with the money they can afford to live in the manner befitting such intelligent people. Just a thought. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dinsdale_ > Several news reports describe him as trained in “combat support missions.” Anyone know what this means? Last night on CNN somebody was describing “combat support” and I turned to my wife and said “this guy is Radar O’Reilly”. The description last night was similar to a company clerk, though I don’t know if CNN’s description was accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/42 "2002-10-24T20:02:46Z")
I’ve got two theories. The first is that these guys have been trying to call the FBI for weeks demanding money-- never got anywhere, and have been calling again and again while committing murder. It’s only because of FBI stupidity they went on so long. The second is that some intelligent murderer has framed these two guys, and will disappear into the woodwork only to pop up killing again later-- and will kill Muhammed/Williams as part of another spree. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/43 "2002-10-24T20:33:52Z")
OK. So we’ve got Washington state and Washington DC. We’ve got Takoma Park, MD and Tacoma WA. We’ve got Montgomery County and Montgomery AL (where the same guys committed a murder a while back). Any other coincidences? Also, I think that YOJIMBO made a good point. For the longest time, the media was portraying the “Sniper” as some genius murderer who was cleverly evading the authorities. He was probably watching the news and staying one step ahead of the game. He had a plan for getting away by finding areas with numerous highways near them. He chose locations that were secluded and followed no real pattern. He was baffling the best crime solvers in the business. Did someone say something about a duck getting caught in a noose? This guy must just be too smart for us. Now we find out that the “sniper” is actually an idiot with an idiot stepson. They were leaving fingerprints on notes, giving out their bank account number, shooting at tree stumps where they used to live and, this I can’t believe, driving around in the same car that was all over the news. I mean c’mon! These guys were not rocket scientists by any stretch of the imagination. They wanted $10 million? WTF? How did they think that they were going to get it? Meanwhile, we’ve got about a thousand psychologists with degrees galore giving us profiles saying that the guy is a white male with a bad childhood, who was recently fired, who was failure in society, who could never find a job, whose wife left him for the Maytag man, blah, blah, blah. All wrong. Not even close. Let’s see, we’ve got a white Astrovan, a white truck with a ladder on top (with weird writing on the sides), a deep dislike for Michael’s stores. All wrong. Not even close. It’s kind of scary to find out what someone even marginally intelligent might be able to do. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/44 "2002-10-24T20:41:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut \* > \*\*It’s kind of scary to find out what someone even marginally intelligent might be able to do. \*\* Oops. I guess we already found out about 13.5 months ago. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/45 "2002-10-24T22:12:59Z")
As of today, about one pm PDT, Fox news said that despite what you see on cable, these men are not charged with anything yet. Oh, now at three, the older one is being kept on federal gun charges & the other one as a material witness. Odd, one of them comes from Fort Ord area, near me. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/46 "2002-10-24T22:21:44Z")
this just in. the rifle in the car is a ballistic match. a very quiet door close to this case. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/47 "2002-10-24T22:36:44Z")
Up here in Tacoma, survivors guilt has descended on us like prop wash from the news helecopters hovering over Wright & Procter streets last night, because we were all secretly thankful that this wasn’t going on up here; and now we know that it very well could have been. On a lighter note, I now fear that Hollywood will latch onto J A Muhammed and Timothy McVeigh, and a new archetype will be born: the mass murderer perversely spawned by our “Feel-Good” war (just like our “National Nightmare” in Vietnam produced maladjused loners prowling the woods with serrated knives) You think I’m joking? Right now, some scriptwriter is envisoning a scene with a sniper in his 30’s, wearing new cammies, taking aim in clump of trees, but before he can shoot, his throat is slit by an old man in tattered cammies. Then the old man flashes back on his youth, when a shell-shocked WWII vet in '1950’s outlaw biker colors says to him “earn this.” ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/48 "2002-10-25T00:01:39Z")
**RTF** : Not to embarrass you, but those are the same two guys… **Slithy Tove** , that is frighteningly hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Harvey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@Max\_Harvey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Harvey)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/49 "2002-10-25T00:38:06Z")
Have they been linked to Iraq yet? But seriously, I think the last 24 hours have played out a little too conveniently. Not to sound like Jim Garrison, but like **Barbarian** I think there’s a slim-to-good chance these guys could be patsies for the real guy. I just don’t understand why they would practically beg to get caught. Driving around in Maryland with _any_ sniper rifle in the trunk, much less one that matches the ballistics? Smells mighty fishy… ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/50 "2002-10-25T00:56:38Z")
What smells fishy? Exactly what has played out a little too conveniently? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/51 "2002-10-25T01:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Harvey \* > Have they been linked to Iraq yet? > > But seriously, I think the last 24 hours have played out a little too conveniently. Not to sound like Jim Garrison, but like **Barbarian** I think there’s a slim-to-good chance these guys could be patsies for the real guy. I just don’t understand why they would practically beg to get caught. > > Driving around in Maryland with _any_ sniper rifle in the trunk, much less one that matches the ballistics? Smells mighty fishy… Excuse me, but if they _aren’t_ the perpetrators, how exactly did they get ahold of a rifle that matches the ballistics of the murder weapon to drive around with in their trunk? Wal-Mart? “Hi, I’d like to buy a rifle, please. Oh, and give me one that matches the ballistics of the murder weapon in those sniper shootings.” “Right away, sir. _This is Sporting Goods, paging the stockroom. We need one Bushmaster .223 caliber Murder Weapon Special in Sporting Goods. Thanks._” Oh, but I suppose when the CIA ninja assassin who was _really_ behind the attacks as part of a lethal behind-the-scenes power struggle at the Trilateral Commission was done with the rifle, he stashed it in the trunk of these guys’ car and then phoned in to the tip line. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/52 "2002-10-25T01:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > **RTF** : Not to embarrass you, but those are the same two guys… Embarrass away, **Rilch**. The same two guys as whom? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/53 "2002-10-25T01:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*Several news reports describe him as trained in **“combat support missions.”** Anyone know what this means? \*\* Mohammad was in the Combat Engineering branch, with specific training in metalwork and transport. IOW riveting, welding, repairing truck bodies and drivetrains, building battlefield bridges, and the like. Cbt Eng units also handle demolitions and minefields and can reasonably expect to come under fire and have to fight and build at the same time. He also got an “Expert” rating on his rifle marksmanship badge. This means that on his yearly rifle qualification tests he hit at least 36 out of 40 shots on the up-to-400 metre range with the unscoped M16. BUT you can make “Expert” _in Basic Training_, w/o special extra training. You just need to be very good at the same test everyone takes yearly. (My own scores were between 30 and 32. “Sharpshooter” badge). Some media reporters seem to be confusing this with the Expert Infantry Badge and making a big deal of it. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/54 "2002-10-25T01:36:08Z")
**RT** , she’s referring to a post you made on page 1. But maybe she misinterpreted - or else I did. You said something along the lines of “but the AP thinks it’s these two.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Harvey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@Max\_Harvey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Harvey)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/55 "2002-10-25T02:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > Excuse me, but if they _aren’t_ the perpetrators, how exactly did they get ahold of a rifle that matches the ballistics of the murder weapon to drive around with in their trunk? I didn’t say they aren’t the perpetrators, did I? I’m just too skeptical to say without a doubt they _are, right now._ Someone who can kill 10 people with apparent impunity could handle putting a gun in the trunk of a car driven by two idiots. Maybe a third person who played them like Gale and Evelle from “Raising Arizona”. (Notice I said “could” and “maybe”.) It’s disgusting\* that these two are getting a trial by media (and SDMB thread title) rather than the constitutionally guaranteed innocent-until-proven-guilty trial they’re entitled to. Unless they confess, it doesn’t matter what evidence has been collected until it’s shown in a court of law. And even then, all but 12 of us will be spectators with worthless opinions. (Well, 13 including the judge.) It looks like they’re guilty. But at this point “looks like” means jack shit. They’re the ones entitled to the benefit of doubt, not the authorities. \*It’s even more disgusting that 10 people died horribly violent deaths. I’m including this in case anyone thinks I care more about the suspects than the victims. > [@](#): > > Oh, but I suppose when the CIA ninja assassin who was _really_ behind the attacks […] Don’t know why this was included in your reply to me, since I didn’t even insinuate that Other Forces are involved. “ **Not** to sound like Jim Garrison…” On another tangent, I wonder if this will have a big effect on the debate over ballistic “fingerprinting”. Is it as fail-safe as some claim and hope, or is there a significant possibility that two guns (or even more) can have the same print? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/56 "2002-10-25T02:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monster104 \* > \*\*What smells fishy? Exactly what has played out a little too conveniently? \*\* Yeah, I mean they caught McVeigh because he was speeding in a car with no tags, why didn’t he just slap a neon sign on the car that said “I did it!”? Criminals are stupid (jeeze, haven’t ya ever watched a James Bond movie?), and I figured that it’d only be a short time before they were caught once they started talking to the police. Most criminals who talk to the cops wind-up getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/57 "2002-10-25T02:40:11Z")
I doubt (but can’t speak with authority) that two guns can have a close enough barrel print that spent ordinance from one could be mistakenly identified as being fired from the other, but one gun’s barrel print can change significantly over time, particularly so if the barrel is changed. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/58 "2002-10-25T04:52:10Z")
**RTF** : This was your post: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by bordelond_ > **Have read on another BB that a Bushmaster .223 caliber rifle has now been found in Muhammad’s trunk. Can anyone confirm?** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*The [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4422-2002Oct23.html) has confirmed that “a long gun” was found in the trunk; no other details. > > But they’re now saying they believe these are the guys: > > "A former Army soldier and a teenager arrested this morning at a Maryland rest stop are believed to be behind the deadly Washington area sniper shootings that threw the region into panic for weeks, according to two law enforcement sources. > > A long gun was taken from their car, a source close to the investigation said this morning."\*\* The “former Army soldier” and the “teenager” are the same two men, Mohammed and Malvo, who were mentioned in the OP and subsequent posts. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/59 "2002-10-25T09:43:31Z")
Well, yes, that’s what the link said. Color me confused. I thought this was about where I speculated that this wasn’t about money. That’s the only thing I could have been embarrassed about, since it’s the only thing I said that wasn’t simply passing on reportage from CNN and the Washington Post. In this morning’s paper, the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14152-2002Oct24.html) paints a picture of a “serial loser” who, aside from his military career, failed at pretty much everything he tried - and didn’t do all _that_ well in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676/60 "2002-10-25T10:08:26Z")
I want to know how he hooked up with this kid. “Father and son”? “Stepfather and stepson”? I can’t find anything that explains how they met and why they called themselves that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-caught-the-sniper/133676.md?page=4)