# They instead of 'him/her'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2021, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496 "2021-09-28T09:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/41 "2021-09-28T18:15:41Z")
How about the simpler and terser “a driver of a company vehicle involved in a collision should …”? But, yes, we were taught to recast into the plural as a way of avoiding “he or she.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/42 "2021-09-28T18:43:35Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > I found that the simplest way to avoid awkward “he or she” or “he/she” constructions was simply to recast the sentence to make the subjects plural: I’ve done that, too. But I have a bunch of formal sign-offs, for example, that are specifically about a single person, and I have recast them all to avoid pronouns altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/43 "2021-09-28T19:43:46Z")
I suffered through this problem in my column. My readership is engineers, and I often refer to generic engineers, so I did not want to use the generic “he.” The plural solution seldom worked, and the reuse of the identifier was stilted. I used he/she often and I also used he for example 1 and she for example 2 - assuming I had 2. “They” becoming acceptable has made my life much easier. The possibility of non-binary engineers doesn’t really come up, but they dealing with them also is lagniappe. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/44 "2021-09-28T19:59:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The possibility of non-binary engineers doesn’t really come up I know one, fwiw. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/45 "2021-09-29T02:27:12Z")
Not challenging you, but do you have a cite for formal acceptsnce by grammarians? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/46 "2021-09-29T03:05:10Z")
One thing about “they” that sounds odd to my “creaky old ears” is how some people decide to use the singular form of the verb when using “they” to refer to one person. An example (which I sadly cannot find at the moment, so I’m just going by memory) is a story I saw on my university’s newspaper website. The author was writing about one student who had chosen “they” as their pronoun. The author then wrote “They is…” That really sounds odd to me! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/47 "2021-09-29T03:59:15Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Not challenging you, but do you have a cite for formal acceptsnce by grammarians? Well, how about > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > > [@Roger\_That](#): > > > > When I corrected such sentences, I got such grief (from my fellow instructors as well as from students) I threw up my hands and said “Oh, hell, write any way you please.” > > It may grate on you, it may feel incorrect or lazy to you, but it’s not incorrect English. > > [Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. **:** those ones **:** those people, animals, or things > > 2. —used to refer to people in a general way or to a group of people who are not specifie > > 3a. — **used with a singular indefinite pronoun antecedent** > > 3b. — **used with a singular antecedent to refer to an unknown or unspecified person** > > 3c. — **used to refer to a single person whose gender is intentionally not revealed** > > [Oxford Learner’s Dictionary](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/they?q=they): > > > [@](#): > > > > ​1. people, animals or things that have already been mentioned or are easily identified > > 2. **used instead of he or she to refer to a person whose sex is not mentioned or not known** ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/48 "2021-09-29T04:25:13Z")
Yeah, that sounds weird. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/49 "2021-09-29T04:36:17Z")
Well, they don’t call out the enbies specifically, but those cites make the approach seem pretty official. If I get challenged on it I will cite those (or maybe you!😁) ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/50 "2021-09-29T08:06:43Z")
They instead of he or she is common practice in Australian English, not recent or remarkable. On the new meaning, I was listening to a podcast, I think it was Catfish, where a meeting of people unknown to each other had been set up. One of the unknown parties was referred to as they, and hosts were now confused, was it one person or more? So IMO it could do with some work. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/51 "2021-09-29T13:56:21Z")
There was a recent op-ed in the NY Times specifically advocating for using the singular form of the verb when “they” is used to refer to a single person. It is weird, but I could see getting used to it. In a couple of books I’ve read recently, “they” is used to refer to a single NB person, with the plural form, and I found it really confusing. Here’s that op-ed: > **[Opinion | Gender Pronouns Are Changing. It’s Exhilarating. (Published 2021)](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/21/opinion/gender-pronouns-they.html)** > > Embrace “they” for “he” or “she.” Pronoun history is fluid. This is, of course, off-topic for this thread, in that this thread is specifically about using “they” in place of him/her when the gender is not known, not for NB people. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/52 "2021-09-29T14:38:12Z")
Surely we can choose our number as well as our gender? But, anyway, > [@RitterSport](#): > > In a couple of books I’ve read recently, “they” is used to refer to a single NB person, with the plural form, and I found it really confusing. how is “they are” (referring to one person) any more confusing than “you are” (addressing one person)? I’m not yet convinced the gender of the person matters in the first case any more than in the second case. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/53 "2021-09-29T14:42:42Z")
Do you mean because “you” can refer to more than one person? If that’s what you mean, I would say that, most of the time, “you” refers to one person and “they” refers to multiple people. When writers use “you” to refer to many people, it’s usually in the context of someone addressing a bunch of people already, or it’s clarified by writing “all of you” or “you all”. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/54 "2021-09-29T14:46:19Z")
I mean that in both cases one is using a plural personal pronoun to refer to exactly one person. Indeed, most of the time with “you”, as you point out. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/55 "2021-09-29T14:50:36Z")
Right, but in English, we don’t usually leave out the pronoun, and “you” typically refers to one person, while “they” typically refers to multiple people. When “you” refers to many people, my experience has been that it is accompanied by other words to make that clear. When “they” is used for someone who is non-binary, it’s not usually made clear. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/56 "2021-09-29T14:52:53Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Well, they don’t call out the enbies specifically, but those cites make the approach seem pretty official. If I get challenged on it I will cite those (or maybe you!😁) Actually, those two online dictionaries _do_ contain mentions of non-binary people in their definitions of “they,” but I hadn’t included them, because when I had originally posted those references, it was in response to someone who just did not like the use of “they” to refer to a single person, and was convinced that it was not correct. Here are the non-binary references: From Merriam-Webster: > [@](#): > > used to refer to a single person whose [gender identity](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity) is nonbinary (see [NONBINARY sense c](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonbinary)) From the Oxford Learner’s Dictionaries: > [@](#): > > People who are non-binary (= do not identify as either male or female) also often prefer to be referred to as they. ---
**Author:** ![CardboardBoxx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardboardboxx/32/7079_2.png) [@CardboardBoxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CardboardBoxx)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/57 "2021-09-29T15:00:19Z")
If they can’t agree on any of the other fine options that have been presented (ze, e, zir hir etc) the singular pronouns should be “theysingular” and “themsingular”. If you don’t actually say the “singular” bit you’re talking about more than one person, you’re talking about a generic person or you’re simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/58 "2021-09-29T17:34:58Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > how is “they are” (referring to one person) any more confusing than “you are” (addressing one person)? I’m not yet convinced the gender of the person matters in the first case any more than in the second case. Honestly, I often DO find that confusing, and I’ve taken to usually specifying “you all” or similar when I’m referring to multiple people with “you”. I am eagerly looking forward to “them-all” becoming popular. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/59 "2021-09-29T19:30:09Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > ETA there are plenty of male "Toni"s and vice versa. I admit I would normally expect “Nino” to be a guy vs “Nina” though. Yet there are female "Nino"s too A lot of this is regional; and I would expect a non-native English speaker to be particularly sensitive to it. For example, in English, “Toni” is generally accepted as a feminine diminutive (roughly the female equivalent of Tony); but in various places in Europe, it’s the masculine diminutive of the local variation on Antonius (Antonii, Antonio, Antal, Anton, etc.). Similarly, Nino is a Italian masculine diminutive for a variety of names, but it’s also a feminine name (like St. Nino) found in the Caucuses. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a female “Tony” though. But still, I would think the more language exposure you have, the less confident you would be in your assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/60 "2021-09-29T19:39:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I know one, fwiw. Me too, but it isn’t relevant to the column. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496.md?page=4)