# They instead of 'him/her'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2021, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496 "2021-09-28T09:04:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/61 "2021-09-29T19:43:41Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Surely we can choose our number as well as our gender? If it’s good enough for Walt Whitman (“I contain multitudes”) it’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/62 "2021-09-30T02:01:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Honestly, I often DO find that confusing, and I’ve taken to usually specifying “you all” or similar when I’m referring to multiple people with “you”. That’s the way the English language I grew up with does it. The rest of y’all are finally catching up with the South, linguistically. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I am eagerly looking forward to “them-all” becoming popular. Great idea! ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/63 "2021-10-02T23:51:11Z")
My problem with “they” is usually not with ambiguity of gender, but with ambiguity of quantity, whenever the gender is implied, such as in: “Spoke with John and they decided not to buy the house”. Now of course one could use “both of them”, but what if only John decided so ? Should I talk to the John’s partner as well ? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2021, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/64 "2021-10-03T03:08:25Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Not challenging you, but do you have a cite for formal acceptsnce by grammarians? There’s no such thing as formal acceptance by grammarians. But in addition to the other citations, the Wikipedia article discusses historical precedent. > **[Singular they](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they)** > > Singular they, along with its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (also themself and theirself), is a gender-neutral third-person pronoun. It typically occurs with an indeterminate antecedent, in sentences such as: > This use of singular they had emerged by the 14th century, about a century after the plural they. It has been commonly employed in everyday English ever since and has gained currency in official contexts. Singular they has been criticised since the mid... ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2021, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/65 "2021-10-03T04:33:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > Honestly, I often DO find that confusing, and I’ve taken to usually specifying “you all” or similar when I’m referring to multiple people with “you”. > > That’s the way the English language I grew up with does it. The rest of y’all are finally catching up with the South, linguistically. > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I am eagerly looking forward to “them-all” becoming popular. > > Great idea! Goes along with the equally regional “we is doin’ good!” or “They is a-comin’ tomorrah!” and “I be happy”? Channeling Jed Clampett? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/66 "2021-10-05T01:33:06Z")
I’m fairly certain this is a bit out of date now, but when I was a kid, some of my family who lived seriously far out in the boonies would distinguish between “We all” and “We uns is”. The first was First Person Inclusive, while the secon was First Person Exclusive: FPI: We all are going into town. (I’m telling you that we, including you, are headed for town.) FPE: We uns is headed into town. (I’m telling you that a number of us, not including you, are headed for town.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/67 "2021-10-05T06:07:57Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a female “Tony” though. I’m rereading _My Ántonia_ and the title character is called Tony throughout. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/68 "2021-10-05T17:17:42Z")
> [@Turki-lurki](#): > > Not challenging you, but do you have a cite for formal acceptsnce by grammarians? Depends on what you mean by grammarians. General purpose dictionaries, such as Merriam-Webster, are all descriptivist. Style guides tend to be highly prescriptivist. So we have M-W being fine with the singular they because that’s how people use it. And we have Chicago still considering it to be non-standard: > [@CMoS 16th](#): > > 5.46 THE SINGULAR “THEY” > > A singular antecedent requires a singular referent pronoun. Because _he_ is no longer accepted as a generic pronoun referring to a person of either sex, it has become common in speech and in informal writing to substitute the third-person plural pronouns _they, them, their,_ and _themselves_ , and the nonstandard singular _themself_ . While this usage is accepted in casual contexts, it is still considered ungrammatical in formal writing. Avoiding the plural form by alternating masculine and feminine pronouns is awkward and only emphasizes the inherent problem of not having a generic third-person pronoun. Employing an artificial form such as _s/he_ is distracting at best, and most readers find it ridiculous. There are several better ways to avoid the problem. For example, use the traditional, formal _he or she_ , _him or her_ , _his or her_ , _himself or herself_ . Stylistically, this device is usually awkward or even stilted, but if used sparingly it can be functional. They don’t seem to have changed their view much for the 17th edition ([cite](https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Pronouns/faq0031.html)), but I think they’re coming around. I don’t have a copy handy, but I believe that the 17th suggests that formal writers “be wary” of using the singular they. Maybe for the 18th. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496/69 "2021-10-06T14:52:05Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You did not become a singular pronoun and replace thee. They coexisted as singular pronouns. You is the formal form, used when addressing your betters, and thee is the informal form, used when speaking down to a peasant or between close especially close friends. Over time, the informal version dropped out of usage. Guess we all just got too big for our britches, demanding to be addressed as gentry. They coexisted as singular pronouns _on the way from being a plural/singular pair_. > As far back as the 14th century, the plural forms _ye_ and _you_ began to be used to address one person—usually a superior—as a mark of deference and respect. This change could have been influenced by the first-person plural _we_ ([the royal “we”](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/royal%20we)) used by sovereigns or reflected the impact of French politeness at work in Middle English. > [You Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/you) Norwegian by the way still uses the second person plural this way, although it’s gone from “everyday polite” in the 1960s to “speaking to royalty and people who were already very old in the 60s” today. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-instead-of-him-her/951496.md?page=3)