# They Threw away 19,000 votes! Gore actually won! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2000, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427 "2000-11-09T08:30:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/1 "2000-11-09T08:30:37Z")
Leave it to Nightline to reveal the juiciest piece of info yet. Because of “double-voting” in Palm Beach (realizing they mistakenly voted Buchanan, then corrected by punching Gore) they tossed 19,000 votes. Well, kids, if Bush gets it now then he’s stealing it. The truth of the matter is that Gore won. And hallelujah, it looks like he’s going to FIGHT! YES! stoid rejuvenated! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/2 "2000-11-09T14:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoidela \* > \*\*Leave it to Nightline to reveal the juiciest piece of info yet. > > Because of “double-voting” in Palm Beach (realizing they mistakenly voted Buchanan, then corrected by punching Gore) they tossed 19,000 votes. > > Well, kids, if Bush gets it now then he’s stealing it. > > The truth of the matter is that Gore won. > > And hallelujah, it looks like he’s going to FIGHT! > > YES! > > stoid > rejuvenated! \*\* Its a secret ballot. How do we know that they didn’t accidently pushed Gore and then went ahead and pushed Buchanan? Those 19,000 votes should have been tossed out. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/3 "2000-11-09T14:24:28Z")
Let’s not start the celebration yet. I think we should be very concerned that at the dawn of the 21st century, we still have voting methods in place where you could incorrectly vote for two candidates. Honestly, does it make sense these days to have senior citizens (or anyone, for that matter) have to use a little metal spike to physically poke holes in a piece of paper in order to vote for the President? I’m not sure of the mechanics of a voting booth, but I think that it won’t allow you to vote for two people for President. If the recount shows that those 19,000 votes could be a factor, I think the only fair thing to do is to have Florida scrap the results and vote again. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/4 "2000-11-09T14:31:50Z")
I know there’s not an IQ or a literacy requirement for voting, but Come on. A monkey could have figured that ballot out. The only way you can claim that those “19,000” votes belong to Gore is by stating that the mentally challenged and inept are all Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![writefetus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/9de053/32.png) [@writefetus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/writefetus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/5 "2000-11-09T14:33:05Z")
Jebus Christ! …look, I live inna little hick town and we have mechanical voting booths that make a mistake like this impossible. Is not Palm Beach Co. one of the most affluent municipalities in the country…and they use PAPER PUNCH BALLOTS?..what gives? ---
**Author:** ![Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/779978/32.png) [@Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zumba_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/6 "2000-11-09T14:33:37Z")
I can’t find anywhere that says the 19,000 votes scraped were votes for Gore. Everything I can find says that they were scraped because of two votes for president. It could have been any two candidates. Everyone knows that if you put two votes for the same race on the ballot neither counts. That is only fair. You can’t guess who a person meant to vote for. IMHO a new election in FL would be unfair. The results would probably change quite a bit. You can’t make people re-vote the same way they voted the first time. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/7 "2000-11-09T14:35:36Z")
I doubt there is a precinct in America where invalid ballots have **not** been thrown out for one reason or another. In the case of multiple votes, how can officials assume one candidate was the “correct” choice? It’s not a perfect system, but for better or for worse that’s the one we’ve got. You cast your vote and better make sure you do it right. What would be unfair is to let people say, “Oh, I changed my mind, let me vote again.” Talk about fraud! What if the original Nader voters then decided to vote for Gore? Gore supporters may like this possibility, but that’s not the way it works. Our system is not set up for getting second chances if you don’t like the results of the first. If we reconsider the votes in Palm Beach, there is no way to justify not opening every ballot box in the nation and examining those ballots as well. Maybe this would be acceptable to many, but again, the U.S. does not run elections this way. Of course the story can change if fraud is suspected. Fraud can indeed be a justifiable excuse for voiding an election. I think this happened in Miami a couple of years ago where Democrats stuffed the ballot boxes with an extra 10-20,000 illigetimate absentee votes. But in this case, it is at most the inattention of the voters causing the perceived discrepancies, or a poorly designed ballot that was reviewed and deemed acceptable well before the election. You know, come to think of it, I may have marked my ballot wrong as well. I demand a second chance! (…looking around for a lawyer…) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/8 "2000-11-09T14:43:42Z")
Since many asked after they had marked their ballots but BEFORE they put them in the box, they were entitled to a fresh ballot-many were refused. Also, many ASKED for help from the volunteers, who didn’t know EITHER. I’m sorry, but it’s obvious people were confused. There are already about three lawsuits, IIRC… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/9 "2000-11-09T14:45:32Z")
Oh, and as far as the two hole punches, many stated that they thought one was for Gore and then another for Lieberman, since the holes were adjacent to their names… If you’ve got elderly voters with poor eyesight, and volunteers who couldn’t figure it out… ---
**Author:** ![Nixon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@Nixon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nixon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/10 "2000-11-09T14:46:51Z")
Of course the 19,000 double punched votes will be tossed out…that’s the American way. However, only one candidate in Palm Beach did not have any confusing two holes next to his name. Wanna guess who that was? 🙂 But was that done on purpose? I think not, I hope and pray it wasn’t. Much more distrurbing are reports from voters in Palm Beach that when they realized that they had punched two holes instead of one, they were not given a new ballot as Florida law required but hustled out of the polling place. Was the election of 2000 stolen? You bet. Bush lost, bottom line. If Putin had won in Russia this way, we’d ask the CIA to look out for a coup. But Bush didn’t steal the election either, that antiquated electoral college system did - a relic of the 18th century as useless now as counting Africans as 3/5 of a human being. The next leader in the USA will be someone who moves to get rid of the “theft of 2000” and also pushes for real campaign finance reform. IMHO, both Constitutional Admendments can be kept real simple: “The President and Vice President of the United States shall be elected by the direct vote of the people.” “No person or entity with business before the Congress or the President shall contribute any money towards their election nor channel any money to candidates through third parties.” and perhaps a third: “The ballots for President & Vice President of the United States must be uniform throughout each state and the right of the people to correct mistaken ballots while voting shall not be infringed.” ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/11 "2000-11-09T14:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **divemaster** _: > Of course the story can change if fraud is suspected. Fraud can indeed be a justifiable excuse for voiding an election. I think this happened in Miami a couple of years ago where Democrats stuffed the ballot boxes with an extra 10-20,000 illigetimate absentee votes. Just to clear things up, the illegal absentee ballots were not stuffed by Democrats. The person who was accused of this was Xavier Suarez, ex-mayor of Miami, and a staunch Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Needs2know](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5e925/32.png) [@Needs2know](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Needs2know)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/12 "2000-11-09T15:04:57Z")
From what I heard last night they can litigate this issue but the Florida appeals court will most likely throw it out. They had done so on a similar occasion. The ballot must have been confusing. My ballot wasn’t exactly simple to follow. It was one of those scan form things similar to a standardized test. It had little bubbles that you marked with a black pen. It was run through a machine and according to a worker could give tallies almost immediately. But the ballot was a little jumbled looking. All of the presidental candidates were lined up on the left hand side, state stuff in the middle and local on the right. The good thing about them was the bubble did not appear at the side of the page but directly under the candidates names, and there was a write in blank on each. Still I can see how an older person might occasionally need assistance on something like that. There was a lot of information on one page, and it was closely spaced. I know when my grandmother was still alive she often had a hard time with forms and applications. They were probably using machines back then too. Things she couldn’t see well confused her a little. I am also at an advantage in that I live in a very small town, do not wait in long lines, or have to endure the chaos of polling places where the population is more intense. Just makes for a more relaxed atmosphere in which to study the ballot and make sure you are getting it right. Anyway, I do think it’s a shame that there are 19,000 voters there who came out yet really don’t get to vote. Knowing that the statistics say only about 50% of those who can vote do. I also do not think this voter mix up should be compared to others and minimized. It is not some local election that will only impact a few people living in that particular geographic area, this mix up could have an impact on the entire country. Naturally it wouldn’t be prudent to question every single state that has a close vote, but Florida was a contested state from the very first projections, and it will turn the tide. It was quite alright with many people at 9:00 that night for the Republican camp to start questioning the projections. Something that the media does for every state not just Florida. They were even as early as that talking about absentees. Yet later when it appeared that the Repubs had picked up more votes their camp thought the Dems should concede. But as we all know now by morning there were things that had come to light, the Palm Beach County ballot, lost ballot boxes, etc. that made making a decision impossible. I’m frankly tired of hearing from the media and others that the Democrats should back off and bow out. There is no reason for them too until all the votes are counted. It makes much more sense to me that they do demand a recount. Much more logical because they have won the popular vote across the country. There isn’t any reason to believe that the trend would not extend to Florida. And above all the people of Florida deserve to have their vote counted accurately and fairly just as the rest of the country. Needs2know ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/13 "2000-11-09T15:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by writefetus \* > \*\*Jebus Christ! > …look, I live inna little hick town and we have mechanical voting booths that make a mistake like this impossible. > Is not Palm Beach Co. one of the most affluent municipalities in the country…and they use PAPER PUNCH BALLOTS?..what gives? \*\* I have to agree with that, though the mechanical booths aren’t exactly perfect either. They do make it impossible to vote for more than one candidate, at least. As for the ballots being confusing, personally I’ve never even seen a paper ballot. If I had been presented with a ballot like the ones used in Palm Beach, I’m sure I would have figured it out, but come on, this is an election, not an IQ test. And now I’m hearing on the news that Florida state law requires that the punch block appear to the right of the candidates name. Wouldn’t that make these ballots invalid? And if the ballots are invalid, don’t the people in that district still have a constitutional right to vote? ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/14 "2000-11-09T15:22:18Z")
here’s a [hilarious article.](http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/today/news_7.html) > [@](#): > > . And now I’m hearing on the news that Florida state law requires that the punch block appear to the right of the candidates name. Wouldn’t that make these ballots invalid? And if the ballots are invalid, don’t the people in that district still have a constitutional right to vote? I heard that line too. Do they just throw every single Palm Beach ballot out? That seems to be the worse possible outcome. This election has become surreal, but that’s what you get when you leave it in the hands of Flordia! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/15 "2000-11-09T15:25:11Z")
500 more Gore votes have been found/added. [http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001109/ts/election\_leadall\_dc\_57.html](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001109/ts/election_leadall_dc_57.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/16 "2000-11-09T15:27:10Z")
I do feel like I’m living in a Carl Hiassen novel at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/17 "2000-11-09T15:28:21Z")
[quote] They threw away 19,000 votes! [/quotes] Yes. > [@](#): > > Gore actually won! No. Why? Because … > [@](#): > > They threw away 19,000 votes! Very correctly, I might add. You want to allow a re-vote in Gore-ville? Then let’s have one everywhere. We won’t, of course. Because the idea is asinine. Just as it is in West Palm Beach County. Everything about this vote was legal. These recent “I knew I was confused and I asked for help and wasn’t given any” anecdotes are absolute bullshit, perpetrated by liberals who would sink to any level to get their way. Not to worry, though. Jesse Jackson is down in Florida. I’m sure he’ll work for a fair, thoughtful, balanced, measured solution to the situation. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/18 "2000-11-09T15:39:40Z")
In Chicago we use the little hole-punch cards. The area where you voted for president was pretty clear and not easy to mess-up. The area for judges was confusing as hell as the candidates flip-flopped between the right and left side of the page and were offset by one space and the page was completely filled with names. Also, the little booklet had some play in it so you could slide the page up and down just enough to make figuring out which hole went with what candidate difficult. I’m 33, have good eyesight and have no blatant mental deficiencies and _I_ had to slow down and look carefully to figure out what I was doing. I can easily see how an elderly person or even less careful person could mess-up their ballot on this thing. I’ve always been bummed Chicago didn’t have booths where you pull the lever…I don’t know if it’s better but it seems cooler (coolness clearly being a factor when deciding how ballots should be cast _sarcasm_). That in this day and age we can’t come up with something simpler and clearer is beyond me. I agree with whoever mentioned that all ballots should be standardized in form throughout the US. You could teach kids in school what to expect before they ever see a voting booth. > [@](#): > > _Scylla wrote:_ > I know there’s not an IQ or a literacy requirement for voting, but Come on. A monkey could have figured that ballot out. Actually, there is a literacy requirement. From [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1971.text.html](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1971.text.html) Typical legal mumbo-jumbo but if I read it correctly you can be denied the right to vote if you’re incompetent, illiterate or have less than a 6th grade education. Just thought you’d like to know. I guess they figure you have to be able to _read_ the ballot to vote. ---
**Author:** ![SterlingNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@SterlingNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SterlingNorth)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/19 "2000-11-09T15:40:45Z")
Well, the fact that I keep hearing that in Florida law, when you’re making a ballot the selection should be made to the right of the candidate of your choice, maybe not everything about the vote was legal. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/20 "2000-11-09T15:44:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MilTan \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by **divemaster** _: > > Of course the story can change if fraud is suspected. Fraud can indeed be a justifiable excuse for voiding an election. I think this happened in Miami a couple of years ago where Democrats stuffed the ballot boxes with an extra 10-20,000 illigetimate absentee votes. > > Just to clear things up, the illegal absentee ballots were not stuffed by Democrats. The person who was accused of this was Xavier Suarez, ex-mayor of Miami, and a staunch Republican. > \*\* Thanks for the clarification. I do not want my opinions tarnished by errors in fact. from **Needs2Know** > [@](#): > > I’m frankly tired of hearing from the media and others that the Democrats should back off and bow out. There is no reason for them too until all the votes are counted. It makes much more sense to me that they do demand a recount. Much more logical because they have won the popular vote across the country. There isn’t any reason to believe that the trend would not extend to Florida. Here, we agree. Gore should definately not concede until the recount is over. If that means waiting for every single absentee ballot to come in from overseas, so be it. I actually don’t think too many are advocating that he quit right this second. I hope that once the votes are counted, he will accept the tally and realize that he lost. Of course, if the tally puts him up, more the better for him. I have heard talk of a demand for a _second_ recount after this one. At some point it becomes ridiculous. How many times can you demand the same ballots be counted over and over? Maybe what the focus would be is not just a recount, but a _re-evaluation_ of the “intent” of ballots with some sort of discrepancy, or try to include voided ballots on the assumption that the person meant to vote for Gore. How election officials could determine this is beyond me. On another thread, a poster suggested that _Bush_ concede. Why would a candidate concede with the winning tally? I admit, it would be gracious to hand the election to the person you beat, but how realistic is that? I realize the popular vote favors Gore. For weeks before the election, the possibility of Bush winning the popular vote but losing the EC was bantered about much more than what turned out to occur. To be sure, Republicans thought a Bush loss in this manner would totally suck, but no one to my knowledge talked seriously about bypassing the EC if that were the case. Would Gore have conceded under those circumstances? I don’t think he would, nor would I have thought he should. The EC is our system for now, for better or worse. It is pretty disingenuous to whine about it at this point in an attempt to change things after the fact. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427.md?page=2)