# They Threw away 19,000 votes! Gore actually won! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2000, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427 "2000-11-09T08:30:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/41 "2000-11-09T16:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Constitutional, perhaps. > The voice of the people? Democratic? You guys are getting a little fanatical with this “will of the people” thing. The entire friggin popular vote is closer than 100,000 votes across the entire nation. It’s not like we have a huge difference and the tiny minority is dictating to the majority. 48.001 to 48.0009 If Bush ends up winning the popular vote, I will be interested in hearing whether or not you guys give Bush the power of “ **the voice of the people** ” or whether you start claiming he has **NO MANDATE TO GOVERN!!!** ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/42 "2000-11-09T16:39:39Z")
RTFirefly - > [@](#): > > The persons running the elections have a fiduciary duty to provide a ballot that’s reasonably clear, and that, in whatever level of confusion is inevitable, is reasonably unbiased in its effects. The persons running the election: - had the ballot approved by both the Democratic and Republican parties. - sent sample ballots out to every registered voter, with instructions on what to do and who to contact if they had any questions. - were available at every polling station to answer questions or help people having problems. (And as I’ve stated, I reject the anecdotes conveniently coming out now about the people allegedly requesting help or a new ballot and being rebuffed by election staffers.) It strikes me that they met their requirements. I’m hearing a lot about what should be done in Palm Beach and the state of Florida. Can someone explain to me why we should single these areas out and treat them differently than other parts of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/43 "2000-11-09T16:41:20Z")
Freedom2, they’re talking about the overall popular vote. Which Gore will most certainly win. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/44 "2000-11-09T16:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by writefetus \* > \*\*Is not Palm Beach Co. one of the most affluent municipalities in the country…and they use PAPER PUNCH BALLOTS?..what gives? \*\* I don’t think the wealth or the population of a county has anything to do with it. Los Angeles County is the largest user of paper punch ballots in the country. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/45 "2000-11-09T16:44:34Z")
> [@](#): > > To rectify this, it would seem that at the very least, Gore would have to be awarded all the votes from any ballots punchde for both Gore and Buchanan, plus the majority of the Buchanan votes in PBC. Are you seriously suggesting this? You really think that it would be a good thing for the country if election officals were given the power to decide ‘who we probably really meant to vote for’? I agree that in this case it is highly likely that those people meant to vote for Gore. But every scenario you suggest to fix creates a hell of lot more problems. After every election does anybody who claims to have been confused get to call a re-vote for his whole district? I hate both of those opinionless figureheads, but I think that whoever loses the recount needs to ‘take one for the team’ and push for real campaign reform, rather than than any of the cans of worms nessasary to make it right as you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/46 "2000-11-09T16:47:22Z")
\*\*Freedom2, they’re talking about the overall popular vote. Which Gore will most certainly win. \*\* I am very aware of what they are talking about. I disagree that it is in the bad for Gore. The gap is only 100,000 votes right now, and there are close to a million ballots left to count. I’m not saying that Bush will win it, I’m just pointing out that people are assuming a fact that has not been established yet. ---
**Author:** ![Jaakko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@Jaakko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaakko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/47 "2000-11-09T16:48:56Z")
Hmm, maybe the UN should send observers to help with the vote…😉 But seriously, I think that some sort of a federal standard on these ballots would be a good idea. Why isn’t there one? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/48 "2000-11-09T16:49:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nixon \* > \*\*“The President and Vice President of the United States shall be elected by the direct vote of the people.” > > “No person or entity with business before the Congress or the President shall contribute any money towards their election nor channel any money to candidates through third parties.” > > and perhaps a third: > > “The ballots for President & Vice President of the United States must be uniform throughout each state and the right of the people to correct mistaken ballots while voting shall not be infringed.” \*\* I’d vote for those. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/49 "2000-11-09T16:51:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Milossarian** _ > > These recent “I knew I was confused and I asked for help and wasn’t given any” anecdotes are absolute bullshit, perpetrated by liberals who would sink to any level to get their way. Oh, get off your high horse already. As if conservatives aren’t equally as bad in their own right? As if the conservatives aren’t actively pursuing their own interests in Florida? Puh-lease. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/50 "2000-11-09T16:52:44Z")
Well done post **RTFirefly**. It is intertesting to note the people poo-pooing the re-count seem to be Bush supporters (and, of course, those defending it are Gore supporters). While it’s not surprising you want your candidate to win try and be intellectually honest about this. The easy way to do this is think how you’d act if the tables were reversed. RTFirefly posts some compelling numbers that strongly support the notion that not everything went as it should in Florida. In the past the Florida courts have decided against re-votes for ballots thrown out due to double-punching. This I agree with…if you’re dumb enough to vote twice instead of asking for a new ballot it’s your own fault for throwing out your vote. However, if people did ask for new ballots and had them denied then this is a clear problem. I am NOT saying this is true but it has been alleged and needs to be investigated. _If_ it is true then, while maybe not outright fraud occurred, someone F’d-up and some remedy is in order. Also, has others have posted, the ballot setup seems to violate Florida law which should automatically invalidate the ballots and call for a re-vote. > [@](#): > > _SouthernStyle wrote:_ > Most of you on the board are too young to remember this, but even the most hated president of this half century, Richard Nixon, when told that the Daley machine had delivered Illinois with fraudulent votes and the VP-elect’s machine had done the same in Texas, said, “this country needs a President, it doesn’t need a scandal” and quietly walked away. That’s misleading. BOTH sides were cheating their asses off in that election (at least in Illinois). Snopes lists this one as “Some Claims We’ll Never get to the Bottom of.” > [@](#): > > The charge that a one vote change in each precinct in Illinois would have defeated John F. Kennedy in 1960 is hard to prove or disprove because it’s widely understood there was a fair bit of cheating carried out by both sides over those 27 electoral votes. What the numbers eventually tallied out to be is almost immaterial, as both Nixon’s and Kennedy’s factions were reportedly stuffing every ballot box in sight. That year, the motto in Illinois seemed to be: “One man, one vote - and then some.” A statement from Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley captures the essence of what was going on in that place and time: “One of their precincts, outside of Peoria, where there are only 50 votes, just announced 500 votes for Nixon.” \*Source: [http://www.snopes.com/spoons/fracture/onevote.htm](http://www.snopes.com/spoons/fracture/onevote.htm) \* ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/51 "2000-11-09T16:58:07Z")
I am inclined to strongly agree with **Freedom2** [there’s a first time for everything! :)] that the popular vote is largely irrelevant…The will of the people was, for all intents and purposes, a tie. Since, we can’t have that but have to give the Presidency to one or the other, we have to abide by the laws in doing that. On the other hand, this Palm Beach thing is beginning to sound more and more serious. And, I just read (at Yahoo news) that even Pat Buchanan is saying that he believes most of the 3400 votes that he received there were probably from people who did not mean to vote for him! I don’t know how this can be resolved fairly though. I admit that a revote is not really a fair solution since if the county knows they are deciding the fate of the entire election there, that will change people’s votes (like those of Nader voters). This is beginning to look really messy. I think at some point, it may come down to how this all breaks with the American public pressuring one of the two candidates to say, “Look, I am going to accept defeat here.” For a while, I thought Gore might have to do that…But, at this point, the evidence seems to be getting stronger for the Palm Beach verdict being majorly screwed, so maybe Bush will have to. Clearly, where the American public comes down depends on the recount and how this whole Palm Beach thing ends up looking. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/52 "2000-11-09T17:04:35Z")
It was a ballot designed by an elected committee. It’s a ballot that was approved by an elected Democratic official. It was provided to the candidates in advance. It had been used before. It was published in the newspaper. As is required, there was plenty of time for any and all to register a complaint concerning the ballot. Nobody did. It’s a legal ballot. Period. It’s not a good ballot, but the time to do anything about that fact has passed. There has been a lot of accusations of improprieties and unfairness. A lot of jumping to conclusions (the OP for example,) that are noting more than opportunistic and divisive. As Gore himself said, “This is a country ruled by law.” This is the way we elect a President. Florida voting was also skewed by premature announcements on election night, taking the impetus away from the mostly Republican panhandle vote. This is also too late to be acted upon. Let Florida do the job. Let the chips fall where they may, and live with the result. ---
**Author:** ![douglips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@douglips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/douglips)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/53 "2000-11-09T17:07:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WiredGuy \* > \*\*Beneath the caption and preceding the names of candidates shall be the following words: “To vote for a candidate, mark a cross (X) in the blank space at the right of the name of the candidate for whom you desire to vote.” > Therefore the holes MUST be to the right of the canidate. \*\* ? Therefore the holes must not be holes. How do you mark an X in the blank space with a punch? Are all florida ballots illegal because they don’t have a blank space to be marked with an X? ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/54 "2000-11-09T17:08:01Z")
jshore That can be hazardous to your posting reputation.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/55 "2000-11-09T17:08:16Z")
As someone pointed out, there were an abnormally high number of votes for Buchanan (even Buchanan says so - it was five times the number of Broward County, which has twice the population of Palm Beach County). In addition, 19,000 votes thrown away was quoted as being about 4% of the votes - an average area throws away .5% of their votes for similar reasons. Both of these things point to an irregularity. The solution, however, I couldn’t say. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/56 "2000-11-09T17:11:51Z")
Maybe a re-vote won’t be necessary. **The recount seems to be breaking Gore’s way.** With 38 of 67 counties reporting, Bush’s lead is now down to 830 votes. At the rate Gore is gaining votes, if the remaining counties break that way, Gore could wind up with a pretty good lead, pending the arrival of the absentee ballots. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/57 "2000-11-09T17:16:27Z")
Oh yeah, and a federal judge has scheduled a hearing for this afternoon on the Palm Beach debacle. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/58 "2000-11-09T17:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*Maybe a re-vote won’t be necessary. > > **The recount seems to be breaking Gore’s way.** With 38 of 67 counties reporting, Bush’s lead is now down to 830 votes. At the rate Gore is gaining votes, if the remaining counties break that way, Gore could wind up with a pretty good lead, pending the arrival of the absentee ballots. \*\* You might wish to redo the math here. Also Bush may have the overseas ballots to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![WiredGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@WiredGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WiredGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/59 "2000-11-09T17:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by douglips \* > ? Therefore the holes must not be holes. How do you mark an X in the blank space with a punch? Are all florida ballots illegal because they don’t have a blank space to be marked with an X? > > \*\* No because if you read the rest of the document it says that you can substitue spaces for othermeans of marking as long as the marking is clear. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/278dde/32.png) [@JustAnotherGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/60 "2000-11-09T17:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*Maybe a re-vote won’t be necessary. > > **The recount seems to be breaking Gore’s way.** With 38 of 67 counties reporting, Bush’s lead is now down to 830 votes. At the rate Gore is gaining votes, if the remaining counties break that way, Gore could wind up with a pretty good lead, pending the arrival of the absentee ballots. \*\* And if the recount puts Gore in the White House, rest assured, I for one will endure the other flavor of bland for four years. I won’t threaten to move out of the country or demand a recount of every close race that went to Gore. I won’t look for ballots in other counties in other states that may have been difficult for the elderly to read. I once said, “I don’t care how many times Jeb counts those votes, his brother won!” But seeing as both parties are watching the recount, I hope that everyone will peacefully agree that it is a valid count and move on for another four years. I’m sure some will continue to belly ache over bad ballot forms in a singular county (as I am sure this ONE, heavily Democrat county was the only one with confusing ballots[/sarcasm]), but the time to correct the ballot form was months ago, before the election. Perhaps this election will make people pay a little more attention to their local governments. It apparently makes a difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427.md?page=4)