# They Threw away 19,000 votes! Gore actually won! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2000, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427 "2000-11-09T08:30:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/278dde/32.png) [@JustAnotherGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/141 "2000-11-10T17:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > Does anybody know if these ballots have been used in Palm Beach before, and, if so, if there were problems? > Esprix \*\* It is my understanding they were used in 1996, resulting in the 14,000 thrown votes in that county in that election. A few FACTS about Palm Beach County for all ye who think those votes for Buchanan were assuredly for Al Gore: ``` 1996 2000 Diff % ``` Total Votes 396,926 461,988 65,062 16.39% Democrat 230,621 268,945 38,324 16.62% Libertarian 1,804 5,564 3,760 208.43% Democrat + Libert 232,425 274,509 42,084 18.10% Republican 133,762 152,846 19,084 14.27% Reform 30,739 3,407 -27,332 -88.92% Republican + Reform 164,501 156,253 -8,248 - 5.01% Less people voted Republican/Reform in 2000 than in 1996 both in number and percentage of the voting population. Democrats are claiming another 18,000 votes belong to them, roughly another 4% of the vote … cites: 1996 [http://www.leg.state.fl.us/edr/elections.cfm](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/edr/elections.cfm) 2000 [http://www.pbcelections.org/ElectionResults/2000/GEN/CUM\_PRE.HTM](http://www.pbcelections.org/ElectionResults/2000/GEN/CUM_PRE.HTM) ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/142 "2000-11-10T17:12:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **KeithT already posted a section of Florida law stating that holes may be placed to the right or left of the names, so this is incorrect.** Somehow, I missed that one. > [@](#): > > **The candidates names probably are in the order in which the finished in the primaries. If you read like most Americans, you read down the left-hand side starting with Gore, to the bottom, then up to the top of the right-hand page, where Buchanan is.** Agreed, but the holes were misplaced. The first was for Bush, the second for Buchanan, the third for Gore, etc. I would not have been confused by this ballot, but I can understand why some were. > [@](#): > > **Now, the smart thing to do, since there were enough candidates to flow onto two pages, would have been to put all the holes to the right of the names.** Or, put the names on two consecutive pages, ALL with the names on the left and holes on the right. > [@](#): > > **Since the Democrats in Palm County designed this ballot, looks like they are hoist on their own petard.** But it was approved by everyone, Republicans included. And maybe they approved it because their man was listed first, and the hole for Bush was also first. It was much more difficult to accidentally cast a vote for Bush than to accidentally cast one for Buchanan. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/143 "2000-11-10T17:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > **And whether or not the butterfly ballots caused a problem elsewhere isn’t really the issue (at least not for me). Whether they were _legal_ is the issue, as far as I’m concerned** These are somewhat dependent. If the ballots are egregiously misleading, they are more likely to be judged illegal. If they are judged to be such that a person of reasonable intelligence should be able to figure them out, they are less likely. As such, evidence that they are in widespread use without causing problems is significant. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/278dde/32.png) [@JustAnotherGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/144 "2000-11-10T17:35:51Z")
Well that table came out like $!#% Can anyone tell me the correct way to make a table? Meanwhile… the racist quote of the day: `Our vote was stolen,'' Gore supporter Don Liftman said. `Three thousand Buchanan supporters in a county full of Jewish condo residents? I don’t think so.’’ ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/145 "2000-11-10T17:36:47Z")
from [Florida Title IX, Chapter 101.5614](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC5614.HTM&Title=-%3E2000-%3ECh0101-%3ESection%205614) > [@](#): > > (6) If an elector marks more names than there are persons to be elected to an office or if it is impossible to determine the elector’s choice, **the elector’s ballot shall not be counted for that office,** but the ballot shall not be invalidated as to those names which are properly marked. Emphasis mine. Tossing the double punched ballots was legal. The fact that they represent a number larger than the margin of victory is irrelevant. Unless, the state of FL is tossed out because the margin of error is greater than the margin of victory. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/146 "2000-11-10T17:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*OK, so what if there were some 15,000 thrown out for this before? Two wrongs make a right? No. But in 1996, those 15,000 didn’t matter, so nobody really cared. Now they do, so they get noticed. If you get pulled over by a copy for going 90 mph, do you say, “But when I drove by here yesterday, nothing happened!”? \*\* That just doesn’t apply. **every** voting district that uses paper ballots has invalid votes. Voting is a right. Doing it correctly is a responsibility. If you allow Florida districts to revote with the knowledge that you they alone will elect the next President you are altering the election. Protest votes that were made with for independants will change. People’s mind will change. What you are doing in that case is having another, different election. One in which the voters of Palm Beach alone get to choose the President. The concept has its analogues both in science, and in statistics. You are purposefully contaminating your sample. Again, the disqualified votes are statistically representative of ballot voting in general. Because of the larger turnout in 1996 the representation of disqualified votes may even be lower in 2000. Those people made mistakes(or maybe they did it on purpose as a protest, you don’t know.) I don’t see how you can justify selecting them for special treatment. You are disenfranchising the rest of the country (we don’t get to reconsider and vote twice.) For **obvious** scientific and statistical reasons you do not get to select **which** votes out of all the disqualified ones cast in the nation you want to examine and revote. If you do, you are not reporting the results, you are creating them. As a Bush spokesman said “you don’t get to keep recounting and revoting until you get a result you like.” ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/147 "2000-11-10T17:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy \* > \*\*Meanwhile… the racist quote of the day: > > `Our vote was stolen,'' Gore supporter Don Liftman said. `Three thousand Buchanan supporters in a county full of Jewish condo residents? I don’t think so.’’ > \*\* Or as another Democratic official put it “There aren’t three thousand Nazis in PBC”. Adds alot. ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/148 "2000-11-10T18:50:17Z")
Ok, so here’s another monkey in the wrench. According to a radio news story, Mary Matalin, Republican supporter and wife of James Carville, has learned through an employee in the Palm Beach county elections office that the 19,000 ballots in question do NOT represent 19,000 disenfranchised voters. The ballots in question were isolated from the county’s other 400,000 ballots because they were deliberately placed in a “reject” pile when voters, upon realizing that they had made a mistake, took their ballot to a poll worker and requested a new ballot. Please, someone else tell me that they’ve heard this, too. ---
**Author:** ![JustAnotherGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/278dde/32.png) [@JustAnotherGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustAnotherGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/149 "2000-11-10T18:55:52Z")
I hadn’t heard, but I had wondered… ---
**Author:** ![Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/779978/32.png) [@Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zumba_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/150 "2000-11-10T18:59:17Z")
I heard it too SouthernStyle. I heard it on Rush. But, his story was the same as the one your just told. If it is true I find it odd that no one mentioned it before. I also heard that Mrs Clinton said today that she wants to abolish the EC. You think that she could have waited a couple of weeks? ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/151 "2000-11-10T19:21:46Z")
The adjective I would use to describe Mrs. Clinton would be canine, not feline. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/152 "2000-11-10T19:52:30Z")
asinine?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/779978/32.png) [@Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zumba_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/153 "2000-11-10T19:53:48Z")
SouthernStyle That one took me a second to get! “She is a fast cat” is my sig and description of me not of Mrs. Clinton. I would also find different adjectives to describe her. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/154 "2000-11-10T19:56:33Z")
Are you guys claiming that the 19,000 votes represent ballots that were replaced by the voter with a new ballot, and presumably were voted correctly the second time? Or were 19,000 ballots discarded after the voter left the polling place and they did not know that their ballot was thrown out? ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/155 "2000-11-10T20:01:12Z")
According to the story on the radio, the 19,000 ballots in question were set aside when the voter realized that he/she had made an error. No ballot is discarded at the polling place so the spoiled ballots are collected just as are the cast ballots. The ballots in question were NOT culled from those cast. ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/156 "2000-11-10T20:09:01Z")
A couple of observations: 1. You are not disenfranchised because you couldn’t properly complete the ballot. You are not disenfranchised because your candidate lost. 2. Of course “Hillary!” wants to abolish the EC as does every dyed-in-the-wool Democrat–it will radically alter the balance of power towards the Democrats. Do we really want the Northeast corridor from Boston to D.C., southern Florida, L.A. and a few other metropolitan areas the primary focus of our presidents? Talk about disenfranchising people. 3. I suggest that the current debacle demonstrates one reason why a popular vote would be a nightmare–we’d ALL be undergoing recounts right now… ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/157 "2000-11-10T20:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zumba The Cat \* > **I heard it on Rush. But, his story was the same as the one your just told.** If Rush Limbaugh said the Sun was shining, I’d go to the window to see for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/779978/32.png) [@Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zumba_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/158 "2000-11-10T20:27:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KSO \* > \*\*3. I suggest that the current debacle demonstrates one reason why a popular vote would be a nightmare–we’d ALL be undergoing recounts right now… \*\* That has been my point the whole time! With the current less then 1% difference in the popular vote we would have to completely recount under a popular vote system. Could you imagine FL times 50? ---
**Author:** ![Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/779978/32.png) [@Zumba\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zumba_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/159 "2000-11-10T20:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Zumba The Cat \* > > **I heard it on Rush. But, his story was the same as the one you just told.** > > If Rush Limbaugh said the Sun was shining, I’d go to the window to see for myself. \*\* I know jab! Thats why I made sure to tell everyone where I heard it. Then they can believe it or not as they see fit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2000, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427/160 "2000-11-10T22:01:36Z")
I have now heard the other side of the 19,000 ballot problem from somewhere besides here. I do not consider the source I heard it from reliable one way or the other. It seems to me that this is a big question that needs to be resolved. Were these 19,000 ballots mistakes that the voter corrected by getting a new ballot, and thefore casting a legitimate vote, or were these ballots that the voter had no idea they messed up on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-threw-away-19-000-votes-gore-actually-won/40427.md?page=9)