# They want to put synthetic oil in my car. Do I care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 3, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571 "2005-04-03T21:17:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![olefin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@olefin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/21 "2005-04-04T17:21:26Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > When I took my car in for an oil change, they told me that the manufacturer now recommends synthetic oil for my car Check your owners manual. I doubt that any manufacturer is requiring synthetic oil. I think “they” are trying to sell you some high profit oil. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/22 "2005-04-04T17:55:47Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What’s the story with these 10,000 mile oil-change intervals? As far as I know, doing this would absolutely VOID a new car warranty? Synthetic has one big advantage-it does not break down readily until high temperature conditions. So, for a regular passenger car, using synthetic is mostly a waste of money. I recently looked at the new golf with a friend (despite my pit of VW the other day!). I was surprised to see that their “variable servicing” allowed for, depending on driving style, up to 20,000 miles between services! (IIRC) ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/23 "2005-04-04T18:02:39Z")
> [@InvidiousCourgette](#): > > I recently looked at the new golf with a friend (despite my pit of VW the other day!). I was surprised to see that their “variable servicing” allowed for, depending on driving style, up to 20,000 miles between services! (IIRC) 99% of all drivers fall under the “severe” service interval though so check with your manual. My newish Matrix is rated for the “new” rating of 5000 miles (8000 KM). I normally switch at about 6500 km depending on how the oil looks. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/24 "2005-04-04T18:11:37Z")
My car was born with and has always used synthetic oil. As for the $$ aspect, the higher price is offset by the change frequency. No cites, but I have been told synthetic oil is good for changes every 25-30K miles, rather than the standard 5-10k for black gold. ---
**Author:** ![Kythereia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e8c25b/32.png) [@Kythereia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kythereia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/25 "2005-04-04T19:07:18Z")
Semantics nitpick: Your thread title should read “Should I care?”, not “Do I care?”. Only you yourself can tell whether you, at this moment, care about synthetic oil in your car. “Should I care?” implies that your caring is based on any information you get from other Dopers in this thread. Yes, yes, I’m going now… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/26 "2005-04-04T19:25:56Z")
> [@badmana](#): > > 99% of all drivers fall under the “severe” service interval though so check with your manual. Actually, the vast majority of drivers fall under the “normal” classification. It’s what makes normal normal. What’s not normal is special or severe. For example, from a random Ford service manual: > [@](#): > > Normal Schedule > The Normal Schedule applies to those who operate their vehicle under typical, everyday driving conditions. This maintenance frequency represented in this schedule typifies what the vast majority of vehicle operators will require. The listed services should be performed at specified mileage intervals. In addition, there are several exceptions to this Normal Schedule for specific vehicles or special applications. These are listed following the Normal Schedule mileage intervals. If you have any questions about your driving conditions, or for further > clarification, please see your dealer. So let’s look at the alternative: > [@](#): > > Special Operating Conditions > If you operate your Ford/Lincoln/Mercury primarily in any of the more demanding “Special Operating Conditions” listed below, you will need to have the following items maintained more frequently. If you only occasionally operate your vehicle under these conditions, it is not necessary to perform the additional maintenance. For specific recommendations see your dealership service advisor or qualified service professional.[ul] > [li]Towing or carrying heavy loads[/li][li]Extensive idling and/or driving at low-speeds for long distances[/li][li]Driving in dusty conditions[/li][li]Off-road operation[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/27 "2005-04-04T19:46:44Z")
OK, problem #1 is that you are taking your car to a dealer to get service. While dealers do have service departments, such departments mainly exist so that people such as yourself who actually take cars to the dealer for service will be more likely to buy a car from them. They do not make their money from service, they make their money by convincing you to buy another car for as much as they can talk you out of as soon as possible. Barring that outcome, they exist to squeeze as much money as possible out of you until you succumb and buy a new car. Any advice a dealer gives you regarding service is geared solely toward one of these ends. It may be simply that they can get more money out of you from synthetic oil, or they may be more devious and have data that suggests that when you combine car model W from year X with Y miles owned by someone with driving/service habit profile Z, you minimize the time until that person wants/needs to buy another car. The very fact that a dealer suggested you should put synthetic oil in your car, regardless of your knowledge of such matters, should suggest that the idea will be very bad for your car and/or your wallet in some way. Take your car to an actual garage for service (I know a really good one in Bell Gardens if you’re interested, although that may be too far out of your way) or do the oil change yourself. Instructions can be found in Auto Repair for Dummies by Deanna Sclar. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/28 "2005-04-04T20:06:01Z")
> [@](#): > > They do not make their money from service, they make their money by convincing you to buy another car for as much as they can talk you out of as soon as possible. Funny I heard quite the opposite, that they would rather sell you a car with little profit and recoupe it on the service. Also incase you didn’t notice most dealers have the highest $/h rate of repair shops. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/29 "2005-04-04T20:10:15Z")
> [@Kythereia](#): > > Semantics nitpick: > > Your thread title should read “Should I care?”, not “Do I care?”. Only you yourself can tell whether you, at this moment, care about synthetic oil in your car. “Should I care?” implies that your caring is based on any information you get from other Dopers in this thread. > > Yes, yes, I’m going now… 😉 I’ll take care of this, everyone. _gently takes Kythereia’s hand and leads her out of GQ_. Come on, hon. Want a cookie? There’s a cookie over in MPSIMS! Let’s go get it together. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/30 "2005-04-04T20:14:38Z")
I’d be a good customer of your car dealer until it has the number of miles that may qualify you for a particular manufacturer’s “after warranty assistance” program. Unless you work for one of these manufacturers, though, you don’t know where that figure is. I have two remaining dealer oil changes on my Continental. ---
**Author:** ![Severian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Severian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Severian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/31 "2005-04-04T20:18:42Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What’s the story with these 10,000 mile oil-change intervals? As far as I know, doing this would absolutely VOID a new car warranty? Synthetic has one big advantage-it does not break down readily until high temperature conditions. So, for a regular passenger car, using synthetic is mostly a waste of money. The manual for my 2004 Grand Prix makes no mention of a mileage based interval: > [@](#): > > Change engine oil and filter. > Interval: As indicated by the GM Oil Life System or every 12 months, whichever occurs first. I’ve been changing it every 6,000-7,500 miles. The Oil Life System has never recommended a change. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/32 "2005-04-04T20:20:33Z")
**Campion,** What kind of motor vehicle do you drive, precisely? ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/33 "2005-04-04T20:20:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Funny I heard quite the opposite, that they would rather sell you a car with little profit and recoupe it on the service. Also incase you didn’t notice most dealers have the highest $/h rate of repair shops. After taking my wife’s Golf in today for a service and paid the bill I have to agree with this. The service light to remind you to take it in is not for your benefit - it’s for theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/34 "2005-04-04T20:31:32Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > Take your car to an actual garage for service (I know a really good one in Bell Gardens if you’re interested, although that may be too far out of your way) or do the oil change yourself. Instructions can be found in Auto Repair for Dummies by Deanna Sclar. Dad? Is that you? I still have the book, honest. 😉 Bell Gardens is a bit too far for me – the dealer is spot on in terms of convenience, which is why I go there. **Kythereia** : Gotcha. Another time, another place, I can explain my thinking as to why I phrased it that way. > [@Johnathan Woodall](#): > > What kind of motor vehicle do you drive, precisely? 2000 Audi A4 1.8T with about half the miles on it you’d expect – about 40,000 right now. The gist of what I’m getting from the thread is that synthetic oil has its place in the universe – largely with vehicles that are driven heavily, as it enables the driver to go for a longer period of time between oil changes and may, in fact, increase the engine’s efficiency marginally so as to offset the increased cost of the synthetic oil. (Although beware the danger of the high mileage engine, whose parts may be held together solely by the gunk that the synthetic oil cleans from the engine.) I’m also getting that the dealer may lie to me to keep me going there because (a) they make a lot of money in service and (b) they want to keep me happy so I’ll buy another car from them. I still wonder what synthetic oil is, though. But I’m happy with the advice that I’ve gotten so far, all. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/35 "2005-04-04T22:50:55Z")
So many opinions, so few facts. Here’s the short answer to “what is synthetic oil?” from [here:](http://www.vancouverwestmotors.ca/vw_audi_faq.htm)_Synthetic oil is composed of designer molecules created by engineers for their superior lubricating characteristics. Synthetic oil has been shown in independent laboratory tests to do a better job of both lubricating engine parts and in controlling internal engine combustion deposits._ More detailed info [here](http://www.organicanews.com/news/article.cfm?story_id=211) and [here.](http://www.csaa.com/global/faqdetail/0,1397,1004010401%257C220,00.html) Audi has issued a Technical Service Bulletin requiring synthetic oil in your car and others with the 1.8 turbo engine. Info about it [here,](http://www.napaautocare.com/c_News_Sludge.aspx)[here,](http://www.audittcca.com/discussions/auditt/00003169) and [here.](http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef56aee!make=Audi&model=A4&ed_makeindex=.ef56aee) So I would say you do/should care, and would be wise to use it in this vehicle. I think your dealership did you a disservice by not making clear the reason behind the synthetic oil recommendation. In this case, it’s not just a matter of personal preference or price. It’s naive and incorrect to assert that all dealership service departments are only out to get your money, and will routinely lie and oversell to that end. There are some bad apples in the bunch, of course, but plenty of dealerships offer competent and honorable service. “Normal” use does not mean “most common” use. Most manufacturers list conditions like extended idling, short trips, and stop and go traffic in their definitions for “severe” service. Those conditions apply to the overwhelming majority of people who drive in city traffic. A number of late-model vehicles (mostly or all European) use synthetic oil as factory fill and specify its use. The color (darkness) of oil is not a reliable indicator of need to change it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/36 "2005-04-05T00:10:07Z")
**Gary** as long as we are discussing what the facts are, let me take a whack at this post. > [@scotandrsn](#): > > OK, problem #1 is that you are taking your car to a dealer to get service. So tell me again why taking my car to someone that knows more about it than the local iffy lube is a bad idea? > [@](#): > > While dealers do have service departments, such departments mainly exist so that people such as yourself who actually take cars to the dealer for service will be more likely to buy a car from them. Only if the service received was good. If the service received is bad, the customer is unlikely to return for a second car. There is a saying in the shop that sales sells the first car, the 2nd 3rd and 4th are sold by the service department. I am proud to be able to say that I have had customers say that the reason they bought from my dealership was because of the service I gave them with their old car. > [@](#): > > They do not make their money from service, they make their money by convincing you to buy another car for as much as they can talk you out of as soon as possible. > > Barring that outcome, they exist to squeeze as much money as possible out of you until you succumb and buy a new car. Any advice a dealer gives you regarding service is geared solely toward one of these ends. You do realize that these two paragraphs contradict each other don’t you? The facts of the matter are that in the current dealer environment, the service and parts department in most dealers make more money, far more money, selling parts and service than they do selling cars. Most of the dealer financials I have looked over had 100% of the fixed costs of the dealership assigned to the back end, that is parts and service paid all of the rent, heat, lights, water etc. And even with that, service would often put more profit in than sales. > [@](#): > > It may be simply that they can get more money out of you from synthetic oil, or they may be more devious and have data that suggests that when you combine car model W from year X with Y miles owned by someone with driving/service habit profile Z, you minimize the time until that person wants/needs to buy another car. See Gary T’s response above > [@](#): > > The very fact that a dealer suggested you should put synthetic oil in your car, regardless of your knowledge of such matters, should suggest that the idea will be very bad for your car and/or your wallet in some way. So if you do not understand what I am trying to explain to you about your car, that automatically makes me a crook, or incompetent? I seriously doubt that your knowledge and understanding of the very complex systems in a modern automobile can even approach mine, or Gary T’s. I can assure that neither of us is a crook, or incompetent. > [@](#): > > Take your car to an actual garage for service (I know a really good one in Bell Gardens if you’re interested, although that may be too far out of your way) or do the oil change yourself. Instructions can be found in Auto Repair for Dummies by Deanna Sclar. My recommendation is to build a relationship with a shop, be it a dealer or an independent, and continue to go there. I know that Gary T has posted a very good thread on finding a quality shop, and I have mentioned ways to do this from time to time also. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/37 "2005-04-05T00:29:14Z")
> [@Campion](#): > > 2000 Audi A4 1.8T with about half the miles on it you’d expect – about 40,000 right now. This vehicle has a KNOWN and ONGOING problem with sludging up conventional motor oils. Along with a V6 Toyota Camry from certain years, this motor has earned the moniker of “sludgemonster”. A quote from Canadian Driver should serve as an effective cite for this: “Audi has also experienced problems with oil sludge build-up in the 1.8T four-cylinder. Audi is not alone, as similar problems have occurred with engines built by Toyota, Chrysler and Mercedes-Benz. Sludge build-up, which manufacturers say is caused by the use of improper engine oil and poor adherence to recommended oil change intervals, could lead to damage of the engine’s internal parts. Audi issued technical service bulletins on this problem and has extended the warranty to eight years with unlimited mileage on the 1.8T engine for all Audi A4s built between 1997 and 2004. The extended warranty is transferable. Owners who have experienced engine damage and paid for repairs can request reimbursement for those repairs provided they can prove the appropriate oil was used and changed at the intervals recommended in the owner’s manual.” \<1\> Most of the time a dealer tries to upsell a customer onto synthetic oil I’d say that dealer is pulling a fast one. In this instance, essentially because of your turbocharger, the original oil reccomendation was faulty. If I operated a vehicle such as yours, I would choose a synthetic oil of the grade reccomended by the manufacturer that also met the “ACEA A3” standard. This is a European standard for oil quality that mandates a high level of resistance to thermal breakdown, among other qualities. Most reputable synthetic oils will meet the ACEA A3 standard. Mobil 1 0W40 should fit the bill, and is readily available. \<3\> I believe VW is in bed with Castrol, in which case a dealer following the “party line” would likely install Castrol Syntec 0W30. \<4\> As to how long to leave the oil in, I would personally do 7000 miles with your car and a good synthetic, but I suspect you could get away with 10000 safely. \<1\> [http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/96-01a4.htm](http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/96-01a4.htm) \<2\> Audi Internal Memo on Warranty Extension [http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/files/AudiOilSludge.pdf](http://www.autospies.com/images/uploads/files/AudiOilSludge.pdf) \<3\> [Page not found | ExxonMobil](http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx) \<4\> [http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=6006933](http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=6006933) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/38 "2005-04-05T15:26:33Z")
> [@](#): > > …“Normal” use does not mean “most common” use. Most manufacturers list conditions like extended idling, short trips, and stop and go traffic in their definitions for “severe” service. Those conditions apply to the overwhelming majority of people who drive in city traffic. Normal _does_ mean “most common” use. It’s the _definition_ of “normal.” I’ll grant that the overwhelming majority of people who drive _only_ in bona fide, urban city traffic qualify as extreme, but the vast majority of _all_ drivers are not city-only drivers. We are suburburban drivers. Hence for virtually everyone here (okay, more than 90%), “normal” is good enough. Extensive idling means beyond 50% of use. Low speed driving means not getting beyond first gear – maybe second in a manual. And even if you do these things occassionally, you’re still okay – these only bring you into extreme if this is your _primary_ driving habit. Unless you live downtown, work downtown, never let your engine get up to temperature, never exceed 15 mpg, and spend more time driving than you would walking, you’re _probably_ okay. Despite everything seen in this thread, I am starting to convince myself to make the move to synthetic, though. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/39 "2005-04-05T15:32:28Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Normal _does_ mean “most common” use. It’s the _definition_ of “normal.” It might be the dictionary definition of “normal,” but that doesn’t mean it’s what car manufacturers hold forth as normal. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571/40 "2005-04-06T02:28:58Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > SNIP > Despite everything seen in this thread, I am starting to convince myself to make the move to synthetic, though. I would kill for some clarification as to how much city driving constitutes enough to put you on the “severe” schedule. I suppose I could write my automaker, but I wonder if I’d get a worthwhile answer. Regarding switching to synthetic, my humble opinion is that it is only worthwhile if you can safely extend your oil change intervals due to using synthetic, or driving an abnormal vehicle. I’ve seen the arguments pro and con for synthetic play out a dozen different times, and the hard evidence doesn’t show any economically worthwhile advantage to synthetic in short oil change intervals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-put-synthetic-oil-in-my-car-do-i-care/297571.md?page=3)