# They want to take away our guns, for what use? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958 "2020-05-17T02:22:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/21 "2020-05-17T20:43:16Z")
The fact is, America has a gun problem unlike any other western country. The fact is the NRA routinely uses imagery and messaging designed to stoke white racial fears that do not align with reality. There is a radicalized entrenched pro-gun movement in America that is impervious to facts and which votes on this single issue in large numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/22 "2020-05-17T21:21:00Z")
> [@Mark\_Finn](#): > > 1. For civilians who own a firearm strictly for self-defense - how many accidental shootings killing (or injuring) someone unintentionally? One 2014 source says 2,549 children died and 13,576 children were injured accidentally in a recent year. According to Wikipedia, in 2013 there were a total of 505 accidental firearm related deaths in the United States. I doubt the number of deaths suddenly increased by more than two thousands just for children the following year. > [@](#): > > 1. For civilians who own a firearm strictly for self-defense - how many crimes were successfully stopped? How many stopped involving the death (or injury) of the intended victim(s)? Did any involve the death (or injury) of innocent people? That’s not an easy question to answer. If someone is attempting to gain access through the sliding door in my kitchen and they flee when I point a pistol at them is that a successful use of a firearm? I didn’t actually shoot them and it’s possible they would have fled at the mere sight of me so how should we count that? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/23 "2020-05-17T21:26:07Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This and the NRA has become increasingly radicalized, pushing a false narrative that stokes white fears. I am a gun owner who has grown less enamored with the NRA over the last 10-15 years. I’ve been disappointed with their increasingly alarmist rhetoric, their lack of defense of Philando Castile, and the fact that the most recent court victories in favor of our 2nd Amendment rights were not championed by the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/24 "2020-05-17T21:50:13Z")
The NRA is just a wing of the Republican Party at this point. And a lot of gun owners are obviously OK with that. Even ones who are not doctrinaire hard-line conservatives might still support them just because of their perceived legal abilities to fight against any further gun control. However, with increasing number of liberal Democrats now becoming interested in guns - something I’ve observed first-hand, and attribute to well-justified fear of Trump’s government and of right-wing vigilante violence - I expect other gun-advocacy groups to spring up that are more apolitical. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/25 "2020-05-17T22:04:37Z")
> [@Loggins](#): > > What is the american charm with guns and mass murders? Why does americans want guns, … First of all, the OP is incorrect about _“Americans want guns”_. 80% of Americans own no guns at all. None. All the guns are owned by the remaining 20% minority. And something like a third of them own only sport hunting weapons. So that leaves something like 1 out of 7 Americans who own guns, and they own several guns each. But that minority of Americans makes a lot of noise, especially about this issue. So people in other countries end up thinking _“Americans want guns”_. And that is incorrect, for most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/26 "2020-05-17T22:21:29Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I am a gun owner who has grown less enamored with the NRA over the last 10-15 years. I’ve been disappointed with their increasingly alarmist rhetoric, their lack of defense of Philando Castile, and the fact that the most recent court victories in favor of our 2nd Amendment rights were not championed by the NRA. Your post demonstrates that the NRA is dentrimental to a rational discussion on gun violence in America. The cartoon strawmen they created of a) the majority of Americans who want some kind of control and b) the threat to people’s safety during a period of historically low crime have done nothing but further their radical agenda. I wasn’t surprised when it turned out they were taking Russian government money to destabilize our society. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/27 "2020-05-17T22:52:41Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > First of all, the OP is incorrect about _“Americans want guns”_. > > 80% of Americans own no guns at all. None. > All the guns are owned by the remaining 20% minority. And something like a third of them own only sport hunting weapons. So that leaves something like 1 out of 7 Americans who own guns, and they own several guns each. > > But that minority of Americans makes a lot of noise, especially about this issue. So people in other countries end up thinking _“Americans want guns”_. And that is incorrect, for most Americans. Close- [Key facts about Americans and guns | Pew Research Center](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/22/facts-about-guns-in-united-states/) _Three-in-ten American adults (30%) say they personally own a gun, and an additional 11% say they live with someone who does…Protection tops the list of reasons why gun owners have a gun, according to the same survey. Two-thirds of gun owners (67%) say this is a major reason why they own a firearm. Considerably smaller shares say hunting (38%), sport shooting (30%), gun collecting (13%) or their job (8%) are major reasons. While men and women are about equally likely to cite protection (65% and 71%, respectively) as a major reason they own a gun, women are more likely than men to cite protection as the only reason (27% of women vs. 8% of men)._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/28 "2020-05-17T22:56:14Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Your post demonstrates that the NRA is dentrimental to a rational discussion on gun violence in America. The cartoon strawmen they created of a) the majority of Americans who want some kind of control and b) the threat to people’s safety during a period of historically low crime have done nothing but further their radical agenda. I wasn’t surprised when it turned out they were taking Russian government money to destabilize our society. If we are in a period of historically low crime , then why do we need more gun control? Yes, the NRA got some Russian $- less than $5000. Part of it was a Life membership fee. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/29 "2020-05-17T22:56:39Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > There were not constant mass murders in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s the way there are today. Guns were still widely available in those decades and in some cases there were fewer restrictions on them (I’ve read about people ordering guns by mail-order catalog with no background check whatsoever, in previous decades.) The plague of shooting sprees is a more recent phenomenon. There was more street crime in previous decades, but I don’t think that’s what you mean by “mass murder.” Something has changed in society to increase the frequency of spree shootings, is the only conclusion that I can draw. I believe that a major factor is the deinstitutionalization that occurred, for a multitude of reasons, in the 1950s and 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/30 "2020-05-18T00:02:02Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Your post demonstrates that the NRA is dentrimental to a rational discussion on gun violence in America. The cartoon strawmen they created of a) the majority of Americans who want some kind of control and b) the threat to people’s safety during a period of historically low crime have done nothing but further their radical agenda. I wasn’t surprised when it turned out they were taking Russian government money to destabilize our society. It’s not just the NRA though. The pro-gun side has been calling me a coward and racist for many years while occasionally demonstrating an uncomfortable penchant for speculating about the close personal relationship I have with my penis. I fully concede that the pro-gun side of the argument makes such statements as well. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/31 "2020-05-18T01:08:50Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s not just the NRA though. The pro-gun side has been calling me a coward and racist for many years while occasionally demonstrating an uncomfortable penchant for speculating about the close personal relationship I have with my penis. I fully concede that the pro-gun side of the argument makes such statements as well. pro-gun? Pro-gun? Generally _on this board_, it’s the anti-gunners who insult the pro-gunners. But yes, on other boards, etc the anti-gunners get some flack. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/32 "2020-05-18T01:12:44Z")
I think maybe the first “pro-gun” was probably supposed to say “anti-gun”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/33 "2020-05-18T01:34:19Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I think maybe the first “pro-gun” was probably supposed to say “anti-gun”. It was supposed to say pro-gun control. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/34 "2020-05-18T01:48:50Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > The fact is, America has a gun problem unlike any other western country. The fact is the NRA routinely uses imagery and messaging designed to stoke white racial fears that do not align with reality. There is a radicalized entrenched pro-gun movement in America that is impervious to facts and which votes on this single issue in large numbers. This is correct, and let me add that if you’re an ammosexual who’s afraid that Obama’s minions are going to break down your door and take your guns (never mind that he’s not the president any more), you’re probably precisely the kind of person who should not have them, and in addition, if you believe this, it’s also not a good idea to brag on social media that you have them. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/35 "2020-05-18T03:05:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No good counts, sorry. Sure when the citizen shoots a perp, there is a statistic, but not when he uses it to scare off a intruder or attacker. I used to have to carry a gun for self defense, and used it twice, once to save a woman from being assaulted. In neither case was the police notified. It works the other way too. I chased a burglar out of my house without a gun, and reported it to the police. I’m sure that had I had a gun I would have told all of my friends that the only reason I survived was that I was armed at the time. Thank god for guns. Even though in actuality a gun would have made no difference. As to why Americans like guns so much, I think it really goes back to the American mythology of being a country of revolutionaries, pioneers and entrepreneurs. The idealized American only relies on himself. To require the aid of others is viewed as weak and lazy. So when it comes to keeping ones safe from a hostile world, a personal firearm is viewed as more reliable than an municipal police force. Its that same reason we don’t have an economic safety net, and universal health care. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/36 "2020-05-18T04:27:04Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This and the NRA has become increasingly radicalized, pushing a false narrative that stokes white fears. > [https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2019/04/24/468951/guns-lies-fear/](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/reports/2019/04/24/468951/guns-lies-fear/) What is amazing is that yes today it is about white fear but the push for open carry originally came from the Panthers to oversee cops arresting African Americans in California, in those days the NRA supported gun control to get them out of their hands! So Ronald Raygun decided to introduce Mumford act and wallah the fight against gun control was born, at this stage the NRA had a coup and we have what we have today. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/37 "2020-05-18T05:18:45Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > It works the other way too. I chased a burglar out of my house without a gun, and reported it to the police. I’m sure that had I had a gun I would have told all of my friends that the only reason I survived was that I was armed at the time. Thank god for guns. Even though in actuality a gun would have made no difference… Absolutely. The other time I had to draw my gun is when two homeless guys lurched out of a alley, one of them with a board with a nail, the other with a knife, and demanded money. Maybe I could have ran, maybe talked them down. or- _maybe not._ And the woman I saved from being assaulted? If I had a baseball bat it would have likely done the job also. Except- i didnt have a baseball bat, and they are hard to carry around with you all the time. There is always a \*maybe. \* But what I _know_- is that me pulling the gun worked. And no one got hurt or shot (the woman was kinda knocked around and very shook up, but Ok, she didnt want to call the cops) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/38 "2020-05-18T05:21:46Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > As to why Americans like guns so much, I think it really goes back to the American mythology of being a country of revolutionaries, pioneers and entrepreneurs. The idealized American only relies on himself. To require the aid of others is viewed as weak and lazy. So when it comes to keeping ones safe from a hostile world, a personal firearm is viewed as more reliable than an municipal police force. Its that same reason we don’t have an economic safety net, and universal health care. I have had occasion to dial 911 for multiple reasons over the years and some of the reasons include the following: gun shots alarmingly close to house, a strange man chased my sister as she was coming home from work at 1:00 a.m., my neighbor waking me when he drunkenly threatening to kill his wife , a brawl involving 15+ teenagers in my front yard, a woman shrieking because her significant other was beating her, and someone who was in my garage late, late at night. Do you know how many times I called the police and they arrived in time to do anything useful? Just once and it was with the 15+ teenager reenacting their favorite Wrestlemania in my front yard. In each case the police arrived within a reasonable amount of time but not within enough time to be helpful if someone was being attacked. I don’t say that as a dig against the police either as they cannot be everywhere at once. But when seconds count the police are often minutes away. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/39 "2020-05-18T10:15:23Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > This is correct, and let me add that if you’re an ammosexual who’s afraid that Obama’s minions are going to break down your door and take your guns (never mind that he’s not the president any more), you’re probably precisely the kind of person who should not have them, and in addition, if you believe this, it’s also not a good idea to brag on social media that you have them. I’m going to just give this a note, nearwildheaven, but it could easily be a warning. Sexualizing issues as a means of denigrating other posters is one of our more obscure rules but it is a rule. Please don’t do so again. ---
**Author:** ![Joeu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joeu/32/2911_2.png) [@Joeu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joeu)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958/40 "2020-05-18T14:37:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Absolutely. The other time I had to draw my gun is when two homeless guys lurched out of a alley, one of them with a board with a nail, the other with a knife, and demanded money. Maybe I could have ran, maybe talked them down. or- _maybe not._ > > And the woman I saved from being assaulted? If I had a baseball bat it would have likely done the job also. Except- i didnt have a baseball bat, and they are hard to carry around with you all the time. > > There is always a \*maybe. > \* > > But what I _know_- is that me pulling the gun worked. And no one got hurt or shot (the woman was kinda knocked around and very shook up, but Ok, she didnt want to call the cops) This puzzled me when you mentioned it before, so thanks for clarifying that the woman didn’t want to call the cops. That helps me to understand a little why you didn’t notify the police, but still only a little. In both these cases, what puzzles me is why **wouldn’t** you call the cops? You used a gun to prevent a serious crime from happening (and good for you–I don’t criticize that at all). But what about the other people, who don’t have a gun, who now have to encounter those same bad guys? Because you didn’t notify the police, while you might have solved the immediate issue, those bad guys are still running around, ready to find the next victim, without the police even having a chance to try to catch them or even be on the lookout. OK, if the woman didn’t want police involved, that adds a little more context and at least arguably makes it more acceptable…but I would certainly argue the other side. If people are defending themselves with guns and then figuring “OK, all done, scared away, nobody shot, life goes on,” that’s not a good outcome to me at all. It’s better than you or the woman you protected getting hurt. But it’s not good. I would argue that the responsible move in cases like this would **always** be to let the police know about it afterwards. I don’t want people going around armed thinking that’s the whole solution. Because it just could make things worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/they-want-to-take-away-our-guns-for-what-use/853958.md?page=3)