# They're coming for your Plan-B **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711 "2012-02-23T06:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/1 "2012-02-23T06:24:08Z")
[At least I expect that to be the way this is soon portrayed](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/washington-state-plan-b-ruling_n_1295585.html). In summary, a Federal judge ruled (for the second time) that Washington cannot force pharmacies to stock Plan-B if they do not want to. Needless to say, I think it’s a good ruling as no business should be forced to provide a product they do not wish to sell. Anyway, in my opinion, a better summary can be found [here](http://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/291733/important-victory-religious-liberty-washington-state-ed-whelan), especially as it relates to the HHS mandate. The pertinent part is quoted: > [@](#): > > 1. The argument that the HHS mandate violates the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is far simpler to grasp than today’s sound ruling is. In part that’s because, in the case of the HHS mandate (a federal action subject to RFRA), there’s no need to reach the Free Exercise issue, including the threshold question whether the mandate is a neutral and generally applicable law for purposes of deference under Employment Division v. Smith (it’s not). Any possible foreshadowing between this ruling and whatever ruling comes out of the HHS mandate, should it make it to the courts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/2 "2012-02-23T06:47:05Z")
So this has something to do with the church/insurance/contraceptive thing? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/3 "2012-02-23T07:00:22Z")
It has to do with the preventing a “zigot” from implanting thing, but ya, a sad day. Pharmacists make pretty poor doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/4 "2012-02-23T07:02:42Z")
Not the original ruling, no. The original ruling has to do with a law Washington passed in 2007 which stated that all pharmacies were required to sell Plan-B. But the argument adopted by the state (it’s not discriminatory because it applies equally to everyone) has also been argued in regards to the HHS mandate, so in a way you could take the case as to giving insight into how a potential court would rule if the mandate ever progressed to the issue where it goes to court. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/5 "2012-02-23T07:07:09Z")
OMG: I’m talking about why pharmacists think it is acceptable to deny time sensitive treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/6 "2012-02-23T07:12:59Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > OMG: > > I’m talking about why pharmacists think it is acceptable to deny time sensitive treatment. Refusing to stock a product is not the same thing as denying someone treatment. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/7 "2012-02-23T07:16:19Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Refusing to stock a product is not the same thing as denying someone treatment. It is when you are the only pharmacy open for hours in every direction. You are making a conscious choice that a women who has been raped will have to take her “chances” or have a traditional abortion. Save a zygote, kill a fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/8 "2012-02-23T07:20:11Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Save a zygote, kill a fetus. I gather that to many pro-lifers, abortion is morally worse the further along the pregnancy is, so I don’t understand Plan-B opposition. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/9 "2012-02-23T07:23:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I gather that to many pro-lifers, abortion is morally worse the further along the pregnancy is, so I don’t understand Plan-B opposition. Most of the time it prevents the release of an egg, the only time it is “abortive” is when sex happened on the day of ovulation. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/10 "2012-02-23T07:25:17Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Most of the time it prevents the release of an egg, the only time it is “abortive” is when sex happened on the day of ovulation. And only if the zygote has not already implanted also. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/11 "2012-02-23T07:49:54Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > [At least I expect that to be the way this is soon portrayed](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/washington-state-plan-b-ruling_n_1295585.html). In summary, a Federal judge ruled (for the second time) that Washington cannot force pharmacies to stock Plan-B if they do not want to. Needless to say, I think it’s a good ruling as no business should be forced to provide a product they do not wish to sell. Do you think businesses should also not have to serve customers they don’t want to serve? For example, do you think hotels or restaurants should have the right to refuse to allow blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/12 "2012-02-23T07:51:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I gather that to many pro-lifers, abortion is morally worse the further along the pregnancy is, so I don’t understand Plan-B opposition. It’s to punish the woman of course. That’s all the whole “anti-abortion” movement is about. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Refusing to stock a product is not the same thing as denying someone treatment. Of course it is, that’s why they do it. Especially when they take the prescription from the women, _then_ announce they won’t give her what’s on the prescription or hand the prescription back to her so she can go elsewhere. As for me, I think that they should be forced to supply what women need regardless of their bigotry, and completely banned from all aspects of the medical industry for life if they refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/13 "2012-02-23T07:57:58Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is when you are the only pharmacy open for hours in every direction. > > You are making a conscious choice that a women who has been raped will have to take her “chances” or have a traditional abortion. By which argument all pharmacists should be forced to keep their shops open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Because if they ever decide to close they are denying women treatment. They should also be forced to make house calls, because if they don’t then women who are housebound, or just don’t have the money for a cab, won’t be able to use the service . Not only that, but all treatments should be free. Because if you ask for money, some people won’t be denied the service. And so on and so forth for every circumstance that might prevent someone from utilising a service. This is of course a total nonsense. Choosing not to offer a service is not denial of service. Denial of service refers to preventing someone from gaining access to a service that actually exists. It doesn’t refer to services that only exist _in potentia_. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/14 "2012-02-23T08:01:59Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > By which argument all pharmacists should be forced to keep their shops open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Because if they ever decide to close they are denying women treatment. They should also be forced to make house calls, because if they don’t then women who are housebound, or just don’t have the money for a cab, won’t be able to use the service . Not only that, but all treatments should be free. Because if you ask for money, some people won’t be denied the service. And so on and so forth for every circumstance that might prevent someone from utilising a service. > > This is of course a total nonsense. Choosing not to offer a service is not denial of service. Denial of service refers to preventing someone from gaining access to a service that actually exists. It doesn’t refer to services that only exist _in potentia_. Nice Strawman ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/15 "2012-02-23T08:03:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s to punish the woman of course. That’s all the whole “anti-abortion” movement is about. Yes, and the anti-slavery movement was all about punishing slave owners. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Especially when they take the prescription from the women, _then_ announce they won’t give her what’s on the prescription or hand the prescription back to her so she can go elsewhere. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that is theft. And I am certain we alreads have laws against theft. > [@](#): > > As for me, I think that they should be forced to supply what women need regardless of their bigotry, and completely banned from all aspects of the medical industry for life if they refuse. Indeed. Whatever they want, whenever they want it. And for whatever they are willing to pay. After all, anything else is “denial of service” and “to punish the woman”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/16 "2012-02-23T08:04:56Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Nice Strawman No. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/17 "2012-02-23T08:28:52Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No. Oh I’m sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? There is a very large difference between asking that a medication is kept in stock vs. compelling a person to make house calls. No where did the law, nor I claim that, it was a fiction created in order to improve your argument. A has position X. B presents position Y which is a distorted version of X. B attacks position Y. Therefore X is false. Strawman An intentional choice to not stock a medication due to non-business is an intentional act to deprive service. They may have that right, we will see once this moves up, this was only a District Judge. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/18 "2012-02-23T08:34:09Z")
As someone who lives about a mile down the road from the grocery store that brought this suit, i’d just like to say that they’re easily the most expensive store in the entire Olympia area, that their products are on average $1-2 more expensive for the exact same products by the same brand than at their competitors, that their store brand is the same crap brand I can get for half the price at Grocery Outlet, that the times i’ve been in the store they never _ever_ had enough cashiers on duty for the volume of customers they had, and that for those reasons I wouldn’t willingly shop there even if they _weren’t_ anti-women jackholes. There _is_ a rather nice sushi counter attached to the building, though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/19 "2012-02-23T08:38:38Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > By which argument all pharmacists should be forced to keep their shops open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Because if they ever decide to close they are denying women treatment. A false analogy, since being closed doesn’t discriminate. In order for that analogy to work they’d have to be closed only for women but still let men in. > [@Blake](#): > > Yes, and the anti-slavery movement was all about punishing slave owners. :rolleyes: The anti-choice movement is a hate movement, and closer in nature to the slavers than to the anti-slavery movement. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/20 "2012-02-23T08:54:37Z")
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/washington-state-plan-b-ruling\_n\_1295585.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/washington-state-plan-b-ruling_n_1295585.html) According to this article the ruling only applies to these two stores. This judge had already seen this case, the appeals court overturned and sent it back. It is highly likely it will not stand. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711.md?page=2)