# They're coming for your Plan-B **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711 "2012-02-23T06:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/461 "2012-03-06T19:08:23Z")
I am not “desperately refusing to understand” anything. Your analogy was inappropriate because it fails to take into account the numerous distinctions between showering and dispensing prescription drugs that have been discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/462 "2012-03-06T19:12:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am not “desperately refusing to understand” anything. Your analogy was inappropriate because it fails to take into account the numerous distinctions between showering and dispensing prescription drugs that have been discussed in this thread. It wasn’t an analogy, in the first place. It was an explanation of **how laws work** , and you **are** desperately refusing to understand **how laws work** because nearly everything you’ve written is based on your misunderstanding of **how laws work**. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/463 "2012-03-06T21:26:25Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I feel that “conscience clauses” are a problem for women who live in remote areas with timely access to only one pharmacy. > > However, I’m even more worried that these clauses may become common in more states, and more pharmacists may choose to invoke those clauses and refuse to dispense Plan B, or oral contraceptives, or any other medicine that they decide they think is against their individual moral beliefs (remember, these conscience clauses are vague and could potentially be applied to more than just Plan B). > > So these arguments of “oh, come one, how many raped and impregnated women have no transportation and only live within 50 miles of one pharmacist” arguments are _not_ very persuasive for me. I think that if conscience clauses are accepted, then potentially women in more conservative areas might find that they _can’t_ just go down the street from CVS to Walgreens - what if the pharmacists at _multiple_ locations in town refuse to dispense? If it makes a difference, I don’t support “conscience clauses.” If I am a pharmacist that works for Acme Pharmacy, and the pharmacy decides to stock Plan B, then it is a business decision for the pharmacy to make. The individual pharmacist can’t defy his employer any more than a dancer at a strip club can refuse to take her clothes off and still keep her job, or the clerk at the convenience store who won’t sell beer. What I find upsetting is a mandate from a state to a private business (even though licensed) that you must stock THIS particular medicine and you must dispense it whether you want to or not. As far as living in the middle of the Bible Belt, that’s part of the deal. Would you mandate that every hospital perform abortions, because after all, it is likely that no hospital will in the middle of Mississippi? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/464 "2012-03-07T00:15:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The economist Adam Smith observed that the city of Paris was utterly dependent on food deliveries from farmers in the countryside. The city would starve in short order if, every day, farmers did not bring meat, vegetables, fruit, and milk into the city to sell. Yet he observed that despite this critical need for the farmers to perform this function, there was no government agency in charge of making sure it happened. The farmers did so because they wished to sell their wares. The market owners that bought that food and made it available to the people, to the restaurants, did so also because they wished to earn a profit. Each and every actor in the critical drama of keeping the city fed acted as though he had some sort of guiding force moving him, but none actually did. > > I imagine that someone might have asked the same question: given how important the function of keeping the city fed is, shouldn’t we focus on what MIGHT happen instead of what is happening? > > But the answer to that question is ‘no.’ The market is a better method for regulating price and distribution of goods than any regulatory scheme, as a general principle. > > There are times when some regulation is critical. But it should, in my view, be the last resort, addressed to a real problem and not a theoretical one, and of sufficient gravity that it mandates interference with personal liberty. > > In most states, no one has a right to unfettered access to Plan B. > > In some states, that isn’t true. Some states have spoken, through their elected representatives, and made it absolutely clear that the will of the people in those states is that their residents have unfettered access to Plan B. That’s within the power of a sovereign state. But it’s equally within the power of a sovereign state to make no declaration at all, and let the market sort it out, or even to explicitly declare that pharmacists have no professional requirement to dispense it. > > I disagree with the public policy decision that says unfettered access to Plan B is the way to go. But I respect the power of the state to impose such a rule, and don’t question its legitimacy. Isn’t that the crux of the issue? " I disagree with plan B"? Since when do you get to impose your religious beliefs on others? And make no mistake, by refusing to fulfill an otherwise legal, proper ( and maybe even required) prescription you are imposing your beliefs. Where your free market analogy fals down, if restaurants are consumers, pharmacy is the farmer, then a pharmacist refusing to fill the legal and proper prescription is a bandit interdicting the highway. In hat situation wouldn’t it be proper for the state to act? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/465 "2012-03-07T00:35:09Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > Not wanting to be an accessory to murder isn’t a moral objection, in your opinion? Well since they’re not an accessory to murder the point is somewhat moot. But since we’re getting to define, by our own beliefs, what’s going to make us an accessory to murder. Well then I’m just going to refuse to sell cars to them black folks. Why? Well, black folks, in my opinion (or under my “moral code”) are more likely to drink and drive. I believe drinking and driving is the same as murder. Therefore, by selling a car to black folk I am supporting murder. Is this ok? And on a slightly different note - When my wife and I were trying to conceive, she was taking Chlomid, I was taking ground up dog testicles (actually Testocaps). Would it have been ok for the pharmacist to deny us this medicine based on their belief that mixed race couples shouldn’t be allowed to breed? Or would you have a problem with that? And if you want to place the refusal to provide plan B as a “moral objection” - is it morally right to force a women to undergo a potentially life endangering 9 month pregnancy, and then impose a duty of caring for a child for 18 years on the basis of your religious beliefs? If denying someone the choice of whether they want to give up 9 months of their life to your beliefs is Moral - then I guess forced labour for 9 months is also “moral”? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/466 "2012-03-07T01:42:44Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > then a pharmacist refusing to fill the legal and proper prescription is a bandit interdicting the highway. In hat situation wouldn’t it be proper for the state to act? No. I won’t speak for Bricker, but the pharmacist is the guy who doesn’t provide change for the parking machine on the street. Damn, you sure would like him to give you some quarters, and he might be a real asshole for not giving them to you. But he doesn’t have to, the state shouldn’t require it, and you might have to pay the parking ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/467 "2012-03-07T02:02:40Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > It wasn’t an analogy, in the first place. It was an explanation of **how laws work** , and you **are** desperately refusing to understand **how laws work** because nearly everything you’ve written is based on your misunderstanding of **how laws work**. Perhaps you’re right. Unfortunately, I’ll have to rely on people who know what analogies are to educate me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/468 "2012-03-07T02:04:14Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > But since we’re getting to define, by our own beliefs, what’s going to make us an accessory to murder. > > Well then I’m just going to refuse to sell cars to them black folks. > > Why? > > Well, black folks, in my opinion (or under my “moral code”) are more likely to drink and drive. I believe drinking and driving is the same as murder. Therefore, by selling a car to black folk I am supporting murder. Is this ok? Speaking of analogies, this one doesn’t work. The pharmacist is discriminating against the product, not against the customer. He’s not refusing to sell cars to black people; he’s refusing to sell cars to _anyone_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/469 "2012-03-07T03:34:33Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Would you mandate that every hospital perform abortions, because after all, it is likely that no hospital will in the middle of Mississippi? Ideally yes, since that would make it impractical for the anti-abortion thugs to concentrate forces on their victims. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/470 "2012-03-07T09:35:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Speaking of analogies, this one doesn’t work. The pharmacist is discriminating against the product, not against the customer. He’s not refusing to sell cars to black people; he’s refusing to sell cars to _anyone_. No they sell the same pills in another form as birth control. It is only the “non-planning sluts” they are singling out. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/471 "2012-03-07T10:06:45Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No they sell the same pills in another form as birth control. > > It is only the “non-planning sluts” they are singling out. This is absolutely what I also cannot understand about the position. It just looks to me like a chance for the pharmacist to basically say … neener neener neener you slut - I am so much better than you. In what sort of a world can a pharmacist really justify not selling plan B. a) Do they really think that sex can ONLY be done for procreation? b) accepting that people do sex for fun, then don’t you want to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible? c) moving on from there, a lady screws up for whatever reason - what does less harm, selling her the Plan B, or forcing her to wait 6 weeks to have the baby scaped out? Or if that fails, bringing an unwanted kid into the world that is not going to be properly cared for…I simply don’t get it… d) but then I’m not clever or enlightened enough by the light of god to understand such matters ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/472 "2012-03-07T12:54:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps you’re right. Unfortunately, I’ll have to rely on people who know what analogies are to educate me. I think you mean ‘someone who’ll tell me what I want to hear.’ ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/473 "2012-03-07T12:57:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No they sell the same pills in another form as birth control. That’s odd. Every example of a pharmacist refusing to sell something, that has been given on this thread, was of pharmacists who refused to sell birth control pills. What gives you the idea that they suddenly don’t mind selling birth control? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/474 "2012-03-07T13:58:49Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > … Every example of a pharmacist refusing to sell something, that has been given on this thread, was of pharmacists who refused to sell birth control pills. … Really? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Wasn’t there a case of a pharmacist refusing to sell a medication needed to stop uterine bleeding after a miscarriage/abortion? … > Yeah, this is the case I was thinking of (hurrying to get this in under the edit window): > > > [@](#): > > > > As described in the complaint, a nurse practitioner from PPGNW attempted to call in a prescription for Methergine, which is commonly used to prevent bleeding from the uterus following childbirth or an abortion, as treatment for an enlarged uterus, for miscarriage management, to help deliver the placenta after childbirth, or as a migraine treatment. The pharmacist inquired whether the patient had undergone an elective abortion, and the nurse refused to answer, citing patient confidentiality. The pharmacist then stated that she would not fill the prescription if the patient had undergone an abortion. When asked if she would refer the nurse to another pharmacist who would fill the prescription, the pharmacist hung up. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/475 "2012-03-07T14:06:40Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No they sell the same pills in another form as birth control. > > It is only the “non-planning sluts” they are singling out. To the extent that there may be pharmacists who dispense birth control but not emergency contraception, I agree with you. Are there any? ---
**Author:** ![ABraut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@ABraut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABraut)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/476 "2012-03-07T14:37:14Z")
My mistake. Now find one that actually supports the idea that pharmacists are refusing Plan B but not hormonal birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/477 "2012-03-07T16:05:23Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Isn’t that the crux of the issue? " I disagree with plan B"? > > Since when do you get to impose your religious beliefs on others? And make no mistake, by refusing to fulfill an otherwise legal, proper ( and maybe even required) prescription you are imposing your beliefs. “Make no mistake?” In fact, this is the very fact I deny. The pharmacist has no general obligation to fill an otherwise legal, proper ( and maybe even required) prescription. So you cannot transform his refusal into an imposing of beliefs. Inn fact, the correct thing to say is that he is not required to assist you. He’s not imposing his belief on you: you are free to do whatever you damn well please. But he doesn’t need to take any active steps to help you. > [@](#): > > Where your free market analogy fals down, if restaurants are consumers, pharmacy is the farmer, then a pharmacist refusing to fill the legal and proper prescription is a bandit interdicting the highway. In hat situation wouldn’t it be proper for the state to act? No, because the bandit stops all progress — he actively steps up to stop you; he interposes himself and takes active steps to block your path. If you try to go around him, he moves to block you; if you try to pass, he threatens you with harm. The pharmacist does not take any active steps at all. He just sits there. Maybe we might imagine the pharmacist as a ferryboat captain, and the road to the market as needing to cross a river. Here we have a pretty good picture: the pharamacist/ferry boat captain doesn’t actively stop your progress, but he refuses to move you across the river. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/478 "2012-03-07T16:12:52Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Well then I’m just going to refuse to sell cars to them black folks. And that, too, would normally be your right, as a matter of personal liberty. It’s the same concept: you don’t impede, but you take no action; you passively refuse to sell. However, in the case of racial discrimination, our society has made a fairly unanimous, certainly super-majoritan determination that we won’t permit this. We have weighed the important interest in personal liberty against the important interest in racial equality and decided that racial equality tips the scales. We have not made that decision in the case of Plan B access. We could. In some states, indeed, we have, but it’s far from universal. I argue that it’s an unwise decision. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/479 "2012-03-07T16:17:56Z")
> [@ABraut](#): > > My mistake. Now find one that actually supports the idea that pharmacists are refusing Plan B but not hormonal birth control. Ummm…the individuals who’s case this entire thread was about sold hormonal birth control but refused to sell plan-b. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/480 "2012-03-07T16:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by REDACTED 1 > … society is prepared to recognize that abhorrence of abortion and abortion-related treatments is a reasonable basis for refusing to serve a particular client a particular medicine. … > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by REDACTED 2 > You have also not told us why a pharmacist should supplant the doctor/patient relationship and the expertise of the doctor with their personal whims. Where does it stop? If the pharmacist knows a woman (because he could see it in her records) had used a Day After pill then refuse all service? Even for prescription Ibuprofen? > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by REDACTED 1 > > … Because that’s what freedom means. … If a pharmacists wishes to refuse service to someone because he doesn’t like her use of the day-after pill, then he should be allowed to do that. … CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711.md?page=25)