# They're coming for your Plan-B **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711 "2012-02-23T06:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/121 "2012-02-25T03:17:45Z")
Those of us with cars probably also have the additional wherewithal to make such a trip relatively easy if not trivial. But for a poor woman who must take off work and ride a bus or several, it may be an insurmountable obstacle, especially given the time-critical nature of the situation. So once again a ‘principled position’ based upon a specific reading of religious scripture has its greatest negative impact on the poorest members of society. Doesn’t say too much for those religious principles, at least IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/122 "2012-02-25T03:53:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Missed the edit window: And there is no evidence that the ONE 60 mile away pharmacy doesn’t stock Plan B. > > So, I am wondering what is the longest distance any women has to travel in this country because of a pharmacy’s refusal to stock Plan B. Then, how many of those women that fit the criteria in my above post are unable to make that travel (which we have established is, at most, 30 miles). > > Once we have those numbers, then we can determine how much the strong arm of the state needs to act to correct this injustice that affects, what I am guessing, is ZERO people in a country of 300 Million. It doesn’t matter if there is another pharmacy one block away or 3 hours away. If I have a prescription or a doctor recommends a treatment the beliefs of the pharmacist is irrelevant. They have no right to get in between the doctor patient relationship. If a pharmacist can’t deal with that then he/she needs to find a new career. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/123 "2012-02-25T04:14:58Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Those of us with cars probably also have the additional wherewithal to make such a trip relatively easy if not trivial. But for a poor woman who must take off work and ride a bus or several, it may be an insurmountable obstacle, especially given the time-critical nature of the situation. So once again a ‘principled position’ based upon a specific reading of religious scripture has its greatest negative impact on the poorest members of society. Doesn’t say too much for those religious principles, at least IMHO. I don’t completely know how poverty works in the US, but if it is anything like my country, lack of access to Plan-B is possibly the 37th biggest problem that woman has. Would you dispense a legal medication you knew it killed 1% of non-sick kids? In the end, everything we do is based on a specific reading of something. > [@Cumberdale](#): > > It doesn’t matter if there is another pharmacy one block away or 3 hours away. If I have a prescription or a doctor recommends a treatment the beliefs of the pharmacist is irrelevant. They have no right to get in between the doctor patient relationship. If a pharmacist can’t deal with that then he/she needs to find a new career. Is it better to have no pharmacy than a non-plan-b-stocking one? what would most communities prefer? what if I don’t stock it simply because it doesn’t make me money? Or I hate the name? Is plan b so important that it makes or breaks a career in pharmacy? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/124 "2012-02-25T04:25:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Is plan b so important that it makes or breaks a career in pharmacy? Careers which have a legal monopoly due to governmental regulation do, and should, have professional standards and codes of conduct. Plan B, on its own, is not all important. The responsibility of pharmacists to dispense legally prescribed medicines which do not present a health risk to patients, however, is all important. Unless of course we want to open pharmacy up to the general populace sans licensing, and we can have Joe’s Pharmacy Shack next to CVS. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/125 "2012-02-25T04:34:04Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Is plan b so important that it makes or breaks a career in pharmacy? No, plan b by itself is not the problem. It is that the pharmacist is forcing him/herself in between the patient/doctor relationship. What if the pharmacist becomes a devotee of homeopathic medicine and decides anything that is prescribed by a doctor under the influence of “Big Pharma” is against his beliefs? How about if he converts to Christian Science and tells a customer that the medicine prescribed wont help and that they should just pray harder? So yes, if the pharmacist wont do there job, ie fill a legal prescription or order from a doctor, then yes their career should be broken. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/126 "2012-02-25T04:58:38Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > No, plan b by itself is not the problem. It is that the pharmacist is forcing him/herself in between the patient/doctor relationship. What if the pharmacist becomes a devotee of homeopathic medicine and decides anything that is prescribed by a doctor under the influence of “Big Pharma” is against his beliefs? How about if he converts to Christian Science and tells a customer that the medicine prescribed wont help and that they should just pray harder? > > So yes, if the pharmacist wont do there job, ie fill a legal prescription or order from a doctor, then yes their career should be broken. The whole concept of armies of Christian scientists that are also pharmacists is a strawman. How does a Christian scientist pharmacy work? How does it make money? Is it like the chorizo shop run by Muslims? Or the geese foie gras farm run by vegans? Also, the patient/doctor relationship is unaffected. Is the pharmacist the doctor’s employee? If the doctor needs/wantd the participation of the pharmacists, then the pharmacist also has a voice. Why can’t the pharmacist, provided he doesn’t break the law, decide to go hoemopathic? Or close the pharmacy and sell Maldivan needlework? ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/127 "2012-02-25T05:06:33Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The whole concept of armies of Christian scientists that are also pharmacists is a strawman. How does a Christian scientist pharmacy work? How does it make money? Is it like the chorizo shop run by Muslims? Or the geese foie gras farm run by vegans? > > Also, the patient/doctor relationship is unaffected. Is the pharmacist the doctor’s employee? If the doctor needs/wantd the participation of the pharmacists, then the pharmacist also has a voice. > Why can’t the pharmacist, provided he doesn’t break the law, decide to go hoemopathic? Or close the pharmacy and sell Maldivan needlework? I don’t believe the Christian Science argument is a strawman. It is an extreme example but I believe illustrates the point very well. In both cases someone is denying someone else, under a doctors order, a specific item because of religious belief. Sorry, but religious beliefs are trumped by medical necessity. And how can you say the doctor/patient relationship is not affected when a pharmacist refuses to fill a legally prescribed prescription? If a pharmacist wants to become a homeopathic “specialist” then yes, he should no longer call himself a pharmacist or his store a pharmacy. He should call his new store what it is, essentially a quack shack and that he is a practitioner of BS. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/128 "2012-02-25T05:20:40Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Missed the edit window: And there is no evidence that the ONE 60 mile away pharmacy doesn’t stock Plan B. > > So, I am wondering what is the longest distance any women has to travel in this country because of a pharmacy’s refusal to stock Plan B. Then, how many of those women that fit the criteria in my above post are unable to make that travel (which we have established is, at most, 30 miles). > > Once we have those numbers, then we can determine how much the strong arm of the state needs to act to correct this injustice that affects, what I am guessing, is ZERO people in a country of 300 Million. I’ve traveled in some of the Western states, where there are very few retail outlets of any kind for hundreds of miles. Yes, there are people in those areas, but quite often there is ONE retail outlet of each kind, if that. Do a bit of traveling in Arizona or Oklahoma or rural Texas. You’ll be humming down the highway, and find a wide spot in the road where you have to go 25 miles an hour for half a mile, because that’s the biggest town for 150 miles. That’s a three hour drive, both ways, to get to another town which might or might not stock this particular medicine. And these places tend to be open only 9-5, there are no 24 hour stores. So someone has to take off work or school, and drive for three hours, and then try to get the script filled, and then drive back. Remember, too, this drug has a very small window in which it’s effective. If a pharmacy or particular pharmacist wants the right to make money dispensing drugs, then I think that the store or pharmacist also has a responsibility to the community to have commonly needed drugs available for dispensing. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/129 "2012-02-25T05:39:41Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I don’t believe the Christian Science argument is a strawman. It is an extreme example but I believe illustrates the point very well. In both cases someone is denying someone else, under a doctors order, a specific item because of religious belief. Sorry, but religious beliefs are trumped by medical necessity. > > And how can you say the doctor/patient relationship is not affected when a pharmacist refuses to fill a legally prescribed prescription? If a pharmacist wants to become a homeopathic “specialist” then yes, he should no longer call himself a pharmacist or his store a pharmacy. He should call his new store what it is, essentially a quack shack and that he is a practitioner of BS. If your doctor prescribes gluten-free noodles and I don’t carry them, am I interfering? The doctor does not give orders to the pharmacist. The doctor doesn’t even order the patient. As to calling yourself a pharmacist (which is a professional title) or your shop a pharmacy it’s up to whatever regulatory body is in place and, whatever the belief, you have to follow them. > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I’ve traveled in some of the Western states, where there are very few retail outlets of any kind for hundreds of miles. Yes, there are people in those areas, but quite often there is ONE retail outlet of each kind, if that. Do a bit of traveling in Arizona or Oklahoma or rural Texas. You’ll be humming down the highway, and find a wide spot in the road where you have to go 25 miles an hour for half a mile, because that’s the biggest town for 150 miles. > > That’s a three hour drive, both ways, to get to another town which might or might not stock this particular medicine. And these places tend to be open only 9-5, there are no 24 hour stores. So someone has to take off work or school, and drive for three hours, and then try to get the script filled, and then drive back. Remember, too, this drug has a very small window in which it’s effective. > > If a pharmacy or particular pharmacist wants the right to make money dispensing drugs, then I think that the store or pharmacist also has a responsibility to the community to have commonly needed drugs available for dispensing. Can the community decide whether a non-plan-b-carrying pharmacy is better than no pharmacy? If a community is so isolated, isn’t it better to have mediocre service than none at all? ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/130 "2012-02-25T05:47:24Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If your doctor prescribes gluten-free noodles and I don’t carry them, am I interfering? > The doctor does not give orders to the pharmacist. The doctor doesn’t even order the patient. > > As to calling yourself a pharmacist (which is a professional title) or your shop a pharmacy it’s up to whatever regulatory body is in place and, whatever the belief, you have to follow them. I don’t believe one can only get gluten-free noodles with a prescription. I also am unaware of any store refusing to carry gluten free noodles because they feel it infringes on their religious beliefs (talk about a strawman). But in your imaginary land where gluten free noodles can only be obtained by prescription and a store keeper refuses to carry it because of a primitive belief system then yes, they are getting in the way of the doctor/patient relationship. A professional title carries with it certain requirements. If said professional decides they don’t like X anymore, then they should lose the right to be called a professional. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/131 "2012-02-25T06:10:03Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I don’t believe the Christian Science argument is a strawman. It is an extreme example but I believe illustrates the point very well. In both cases someone is denying someone else, under a doctors order, a specific item because of religious belief. Sorry, but religious beliefs are trumped by medical necessity. > > And how can you say the doctor/patient relationship is not affected when a pharmacist refuses to fill a legally prescribed prescription? If a pharmacist wants to become a homeopathic “specialist” then yes, he should no longer call himself a pharmacist or his store a pharmacy. He should call his new store what it is, essentially a quack shack and that he is a practitioner of BS. Refusing to carry HIV anti-virals to reduce risk of infection through post-exposure prophylaxis is another real concern. Or the dropping of Birth control all together. IMHO the state is trying to allow pharmacist to be flexible, if the state loses this case I have no doubt they will make a “required stock” list which will be much more intrusive for the pharmacist. I bet most stores use the pharmacy as a draw vs. a primary source of income, I bet that their revenue on Homeopathic junk and band-aids is much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/132 "2012-02-25T06:44:54Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Can the community decide whether a non-plan-b-carrying pharmacy is better than no pharmacy? > If a community is so isolated, isn’t it better to have mediocre service than none at all? False dilemma. They shouldn’t be allowed to impose their bigotry on others, period. A pharmacist who wants to refuse women Plan B should simply be banned from the profession as he is unwilling to do his job. He has demonstrated that he cannot be trusted to perform competently. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/133 "2012-02-25T16:41:14Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Also, the patient/doctor relationship is unaffected. Is the pharmacist the doctor’s employee? If the doctor needs/wantd the participation of the pharmacists, then the pharmacist also has a voice. You’re contradicting yourself here. By deciding that his “conscience” doesn’t allow filling of a lawful prescription, the pharmacist is intruding into the physician-patient relationship. Historically this has only been allowed in the event of the pharmacist noting a drug interaction or improper dose which might harm the patient. Deciding that his own personal morality should prohibit issuing of the drug is a act of interference that has nothing to do with patient safety.\* \*check out statistics for safety of Plan B contraception and compare them to the risks inherent in term pregnancy, especially for underaged women. By trying to compel women to complete pregnancy, the pharmacist is _increasing_ their risk of complications and death. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/134 "2012-02-25T23:38:04Z")
Indeed. It isn’t the pharmacist’s patient, it’s the doctor’s patient. By refusing to fill a valid prescription, a pharmacist is interfering with the patient’s care. But in the case of Plan B we’re talking about an OTC drug with an age restriction. Why is a pharmacist needed to check an ID and ring up a sale? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/135 "2012-02-25T23:54:49Z")
So, do all pharmacists have to carry every prescription drug a doctor could possibly prescribe? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/136 "2012-02-26T00:02:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, do all pharmacists have to carry every prescription drug a doctor could possibly prescribe? No. They should however be forced to carry anything bigoted pharmacists are trying to refuse to dispense, since by doing so they’ve demonstrated they can’t be trusted to used their own judgment on those particular drugs. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/137 "2012-02-26T00:14:17Z")
Where does it end? > [@](#): > > If my abortion leaves me requiring pain meds do they get to refuse to dispense those? No one even touched this question, I notice. Will they refuse HIV fighting drug cocktails, if they think the patient gay? Should stem cell created meds be refused? I notice they are still selling condoms to teenagers, what about when they decide that ain’t right either? They are purposely politicizing this issue, in an attempt to force their morality on others, and so deserve all the push back they get, in my eyes. Including their store being boycotted because of their morality play. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/138 "2012-02-26T00:36:39Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I don’t believe one can only get gluten-free noodles with a prescription. I also am unaware of any store refusing to carry gluten free noodles because they feel it infringes on their religious beliefs (talk about a strawman). But in your imaginary land where gluten free noodles can only be obtained by prescription and a store keeper refuses to carry it because of a primitive belief system then yes, they are getting in the way of the doctor/patient relationship. > > A professional title carries with it certain requirements. If said professional decides they don’t like X anymore, then they should lose the right to be called a professional. If the appropriate licecing board decides that to be X profession and Y specialist you need to so Z, then you can decide if Z is odious enough for you. It remains to be seen, however, if Z is so important that it warrants unlicensing a person that has no problem doing T, Q, N, L, Ñ, Ä, R, and U. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > You’re contradicting yourself here. > > By deciding that his “conscience” doesn’t allow filling of a lawful prescription, the pharmacist is intruding into the physician-patient relationship. Historically this has only been allowed in the event of the pharmacist noting a drug interaction or improper dose which might harm the patient. Deciding that his own personal morality should prohibit issuing of the drug is a act of interference that has nothing to do with patient safety.\* > > \*check out statistics for safety of Plan B contraception and compare them to the risks inherent in term pregnancy, especially for underaged women. By trying to compel women to complete pregnancy, the pharmacist is _increasing_ their risk of complications and death. When the patient arrives at the pharmacy, there is a new relationship forming and it has its own terms. Once again: No pharmacy or no Plan B? what would you choose? What if there is no morality question, the guy simply doesn’t want to sell it because he doesn’t like the box? What if he opens only the first Monday of every other month, is he interfering or simply not helping? > [@CannyDan](#): > > Indeed. It isn’t the pharmacist’s patient, it’s the doctor’s patient. By refusing to fill a valid prescription, a pharmacist is interfering with the patient’s care. > > But in the case of Plan B we’re talking about an OTC drug with an age restriction. Why is a pharmacist needed to check an ID and ring up a sale? It isn’t the pharmacist’s patient, it’s the pharmacist’s client. As to Plan B’s OTCness, it’s up to the regulatory board. Once again: No pharmacy or no Plan B? what would you choose? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/139 "2012-02-26T00:39:58Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Once again: No pharmacy or no Plan B? what would you choose? And once again it’s a false dilemma. Force them to dispense Plan B, or replace them with people who will comply. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711/140 "2012-02-26T01:19:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, do all pharmacists have to carry every prescription drug a doctor could possibly prescribe? How about “Any pharmacist licensed by the state shall be expected to stock or order, via overnight delivery at customer’s cost, any and all legal medicines obtainable by prescription in the United States. The pharmacy shall be allowed to charge X% above the base price of the drug for capsules and Y% for drugs which must be compounded.” This is hardly an insurmountable issue, John. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-coming-for-your-plan-b/613711.md?page=8)