# They're illegal aliens; stop making up other names for them. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468 "2013-03-20T17:16:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/201 "2013-03-22T03:07:37Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… you claimed > > Such a claim would certainly seem to most people to include either children born in the US to illegal immigrants or who came to the US at a very young age. > > I can assure you from personal experience that young children learn languages exceptionally quickly. Not if they aren’t hearing that language. Children of illegals hear only Spanish until they go to public school. > [@](#): > > The idea that someone who came over to the US when they were say 4 or 5 having a problem speaking English when they are 15 or 16 is asinine. It would be if that was even close to anything I said. What I said, and what you quoted was “nor can we afford to educate their non-English speaking children.” We are required to do it by law, we are (more or less) getting it done at the cost of other children and other subjects, and we are running a huge deficit here. Public schools are laying off teachers and increasing class size, which is resulting in the graduation of poorly educated kids. Sure, they (sort of) speak English but far too many have trouble writing a simple memo/letter, doing math and all the other skills that would get them a decent start in life. Seriously. You need to be here to understand the subject. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Are you really so embarrassingly ignorant of Western history that you didn’t recognize one of the West’s most famous example of satire or were you just playing along? > > If the first is true then perhaps it’s the native-born Americans we should worry about educating. Sure thing. Having read that in school would make a huge difference in someone’s life. We must get right on making sure that everyone reads and discusses it, and anything else you think is important. I’m very sorry that it wasn’t included in my education (or I forgot it, which is also possible. I have a vague memory of the title is all). :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/202 "2013-03-22T03:29:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A few centuries ago, a defining trait of any sovereign was the right to control the flow of capital across its borders. Because it makes people rich, we’ve largely done away with limits on the flow of goods and capital. But we’ve inexplicably kept the limits on the flow of people. > > In a few centuries, our laws against people crossing borders will be seen as antiquated and wrong-headed, in the same way we see medieval protectionist laws today. Cool. Thanks for the history lesson. What is your concrete and detailed idea for today’s situation? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/203 "2013-03-22T04:19:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > It would be if that was even close to anything I said. What I said, and what you quoted was “nor can we afford to educate their non-English speaking children.” We are required to do it by law, we are (more or less) getting it done at the cost of other children and other subjects, and we are running a huge deficit here. Public schools are laying off teachers and increasing class size, which is resulting in the graduation of poorly educated kids. Sure, they (sort of) speak English but far too many have trouble writing a simple memo/letter, doing math and all the other skills that would get them a decent start in life. > > Seriously. You need to be here to understand the subject. You are so full of shit it’s amazing you can breathe. I’m a teacher, and I say you are so amazingly wrong it is off the charts. The fact that you are so ignorant that you don’t understand the reference in the article just proves my point. Too stupid to bother with. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/204 "2013-03-22T04:25:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > You are so full of shit it’s amazing you can breathe. I’m a teacher, and I say you are so amazingly wrong it is off the charts. Really? S Cal schools aren’t laying off? We aren’t running in the red? Class sizes aren’t getting bigger? Many kids don’t have extremely poor educations despite having graduated? Just what part of what you quoted do you think is full of shit? Or, being a teacher, are you just going with the flow? > [@](#): > > The fact that you are so ignorant that you don’t understand the reference in the article just proves my point. “the” reference in “the” article. Is that how you teach? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/205 "2013-03-22T13:00:31Z")
I would like to see a guest worker system that provides screening for applicants, legal protections for workers, and a path to citizenship for economically productive families. I believe that as long as education is available, areas with higher populations tend to become more and more prosperous. Immigration has long been a major driver of American prosperity. I am all for increased competition in the workforce. If America wants to stay globally competitive, we need train, educate and innovate, because China, India and everyone else it studying and working their butts off. We can’t afford to feel entitled and protected, or the global economy is going to steamroller us. A little internal competition will keep is nimble and striving. If we effectively have an open border right now, I don’t think formalizing the process is going to lead to new masses pouring in. Mexico’s economy actually isn’t that bad and will continue to grow. This kind of immigration actually is self limiting. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/206 "2013-03-22T18:26:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > From previous threads on the subject, I gather the consensus is we should start prosecuting the employers of undocumented workers. IMHO, though, things are more or less okay as they are. So you’re on the side of profits. To hell with wages and protections for both illegal workers and the classes of citizens they compete with. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/207 "2013-03-22T20:39:56Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > We could always just [eat them](http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html). Probably pretty tasty with some hot sauce. Only if we can somehow keep multiple civil wars from breaking out from people arguing over what type of hot sauce to use. > [@silenus](#): > > After working all day in the hot sun, day in and day out? Are you nuts? They’d be tough as leather. What, don’t you like jerky? > [@curlcoat](#): > > “the” reference in “the” article. Is that how you teach? Wut? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/208 "2013-03-22T21:31:18Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am still interested in hearing what people who appear to be pro-illegal immigrant actually think should be done about this problem at a detailed level. even sven listed out a fairly concrete plan. I believe that if we allowed a fairly fluid flow of people in and out of the country that we’d see fewer problems with illegal immigrants. My understanding is that because the trek is so arduous that people who make it here don’t want to go back, even if they can’t find a job. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I don’t think it is a good idea because a defining trait of any sovereign is the right to control its own borders but maybe an extreme libertarian/progressive/anarchist can convince me otherwise. Why is allowing easier entry exclusive of controlling a border? And here’s a concrete question for you: what is _your_ plan for controlling the border and how much do you think it would cost? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/209 "2013-03-22T21:38:06Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > It is vastly different in that those of us whose ancestors came over on some boat almost all came within the law and were subject to quotas. Today, in California, the illegals flow over the border uncounted and burden our economy. Think about it - do you really want a huge population of uneducated people as citizens in your state? People blather on about how the illegals take jobs that citizens won’t take, but there really aren’t _that_ many of those sorts of jobs to go around, especially since the economy cratered here. These are always the same arguments. According [to this link](http://ellisislandprogram.blogspot.com/2010/09/chapter-16-quotas.html) there were no quotas through Ellis Island. I think I remember there being some Asian quotas during the Yellow Peril but that was not the norm. The people who came through Ellis Island were largely no more educated than today’s immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/210 "2013-03-22T23:01:55Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Post 10. Here: [Quote=Marley23] The OP is right, because as we all know the term “illegal aliens” was handed down by God himself on tablets of fire and is written in the stars. It’s an immutable and inarguable law of nature that that’s what these people must be called at all times. [/quote] :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/211 "2013-03-22T23:24:38Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > (snip) > > :rolleyes: The subject isn’t “the poor”, its the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of people here that take a lot out of the system and don’t pay much if anything back. That “here” is the state of California, where I pay unreal taxes to support all of them and _it isn’t solving anything._ Why don’t you get that? It’s the reality of economics - if you keep taking money to hand it to people who don’t pay into the system, the money is going to run out. > > And there always will be, it’s the nature of man. What you aren’t seeing is those “abused, exploited underclass” people have it much better here than they do in Mexico. That’s why they are here and it’s why they chose to come. They aren’t slaves, they made the choice because it’s a vast improvement in their lives. > > I’m not. My neighbors aren’t. Who all is exploiting them? And how? You keep throwing that word around - define it. > > Oh sure - we treat white poor people so much better… > [@curlcoat](#): > > (snip) > > That was a bizarre article. He deplores abortion and infanticide by the mothers, and then goes on to suggest the babies be fatten and slaughtered for food? Really? You’re offered information on how much money the “illegals” are putting into the Social Security system of the United States and you handwave it away, only to take a satiric article from a couple of centuries ago seriously? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/212 "2013-03-22T23:52:58Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > Really? > > You’re offered information on how much money the “illegals” are putting into the Social Security system of the United States and you handwave it away, only to take a satiric article from a couple of centuries ago seriously? > > Really? [He’s special.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWo) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/213 "2013-03-23T02:13:37Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Cool. Thanks for the history lesson. What is your concrete and detailed idea for today’s situation? What a stupid response. I’m not a professional negotiator of international treaties, so I don’t have a “concrete and detailed idea”, anymore than messageboard proponents of free trade are required to have detailed ideas before they can advocate for free trade. Obviously what I advocate is that the United States enter into treaties with other nations that remove barriers to migration between nations, just as we’ve entered into treaties with other nations that remove barriers to the flow of capital between nations. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/214 "2013-03-23T02:17:44Z")
Perhaps, **Shagnasty** , you’re just totally unfamiliar with the idea, and really meant to type, “Can you educate me on some of the basic arguments for open immigration?” If you’d phrased it that way, it would’ve been a lot less stupid, and [I would have obliged.](http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/coming-to-america-the-benefits-of-open-immigration#axzz2OKE68BDx) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/215 "2013-03-23T18:01:20Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So you’re on the side of profits. To hell with wages and protections for both illegal workers and the classes of citizens they compete with. Not really following this leap of logic. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/216 "2013-03-23T19:35:56Z")
“Things as they are” enables certain companies/industries to exploit workers–paying them less, and providing worse working conditions, than would be the case if they were compelled to hire only citizens (or legal immigrant workers with the same avenues of recourse). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/217 "2013-03-23T19:38:28Z")
I did point out that I want employers to be prosecuted for hiring undocumented workers. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/218 "2013-03-23T23:29:50Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > “Things as they are” enables certain companies/industries to exploit workers–paying them less, and providing worse working conditions, than would be the case if they were compelled to hire only citizens (or legal immigrant workers with the same avenues of recourse). Jumping back in – Seems to me there’s an important aspect to this discussion that I never hear discussed. “Things as they are” allows some nations (I’m thinking especially of Mexico and Guatemala) to simply export their social ills rather than deal with them at home. You’ve got millions of unemployed people, and no plan whatsoever to create employment for them and stabilize your situation? Hey, no sweat, they can all just walk north to the United States. I absolutely believe that segments of the US economy find illegal immigration highly desirable because it gives them an endless supply of powerless labor who can’t complain if they’re forced to work 12 and 14 hours at a stretch without overtime pay, or to handle insecticides without safety gear or training or even being told what they’re handling. I also believe that the situation gives the governments of their home countries a safety valve, and lets them simply ship out a whole bunch of people who might otherwise stay home and get pissed off about their situation and decide to do something about it. Illegal aliens (and fuck it, I’m not going to apologize for using that term) are being exploited on both ends of the trip from home to here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/219 "2013-03-24T00:07:14Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > “Things as they are” enables certain companies/industries to exploit workers–paying them less, and providing worse working conditions, than would be the case if they were compelled to hire only citizens (or legal immigrant workers with the same avenues of recourse). > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I did point out that I want employers to be prosecuted for hiring undocumented workers. Which is not “things as they are”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468/220 "2013-03-24T00:55:08Z")
> [@DiggitCamara](#): > > :smack: Yeah, after four pages he claimed that it was sarcasm. So he’s a sarcastic racist. Or is it okay to be a racist if you hide it in sarcasm? And if someone calls you on it, just call them stupid. And get your friends to agree with you. Sorry, but even if you grant the late claim of sarcasm it’s still at the expense of a defenseless minority group. It’s despicable to refer to people that way. Substitute any other oppressed minority group (or even a non-oppressed majority group) for Marley’s contempt for immigrants in this sentence and you can see how horrifying it is. It’s a huge turd in the punchbowl. Even as sarcasm, it’s at the expense of immigrants and still racist. Hey Marley, how about you apologize for your sarcastic, racist rant? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theyre-illegal-aliens-stop-making-up-other-names-for-them/653468.md?page=12)